Discussion: What do smaller squads want in order to have more fun AND make an impact?

[Snydenthur]

For hex system, small squads have a lot to do. For lattice, I don't know. Maybe wait for a lane to be out of enemies and then ghost cap?

Or just join the main force. This game is supposed to be large battles, what are you doing alone in middle of nowhere. Being with the main force doesn't mean you have to run along with them. Go with them but do your own thing to help the team.

There is nothing soe can do with this situation. Except limit the size of battles and that would kill the game.

[kidriot]

I have to be honest. A lot of what you guys are suggesting are really bad ideas. I expect more coming from, what some people consider, a core group of Planetside 2 fans.

Hostile Takeover usually runs 2 squads. One night we had 30+ on and that was exciting!

We tend to set before us small meaningful goals that give us a sense of accomplishment whenever we succeed. You have to play within your means and my outfit, with its 1.8 kdr avg, routinely takes on a Platoon. Sometimes if there's Enemy Squads we may not bite because the fights end so quickly. Key to small outfits are a few ingredients: communication, response time and mobility. Planetside 2 currently gives us all the tools to communicate, respond and stay mobile. Yes they could be better implemented but as it is we've made it work.

The key is to know what you're getting yourself into. You can have a platoon in a hex but where in the hex are they? 24 focused people > a platoon spread thin.

[Aveox]

I think for a large part the small squad objectives question comes down to the current base design:
- There are no meaningful benefits to owning a base except the tech plant. It is therefore not interesting to attack such targets if they are behind the front line.
- It is not possible to "switch off" base benefits by killing a generator as was possible in PS1.
- Generators and such are located in rooms that have too many doors and windows or are too small to even defend. One of the reasons a small squad could hold their own in PS1 was because all of the important things like capture point and generator were in their own, defensible room with only one door.
- There are too many generators in a base, making it impossible for a small squad to keep them all down.
- There are no "plan B" options like draining a base of NTU to provide an alternate way of capping.


Solutions:
- Biolabs and amp stations should have much more pronounced benefits, like near instant respawn and no turret overheating at all.
- Add a single "facility benefits" generator to main bases that is independant of the rest of the base and can be killed at any time. Put it in a building that is highly defensible and has just one door and no windows
- Likewise, add a "Lattice" generator to major towers like the Crown, Crossroads etc. that allows smaller squads to cut the lattice and deny NTU (see below) and benefits. It should also be put in a smallish room with a single doorway and no windows.
- Add NTU and NTU silo's to the game and allow a base to go neutral when it runs out of NTU
- Allow Galaxies to carry an NTU module and refill NTU silo's by landing on the base or tower air pads and deploying.
- Likewise, allow Galaxies to land on an enemy air pad and extract NTU (but at a much slower rate then filling a friendly base).
- Base turrets and terminals should auto repair, draining NTU. Spawning players and vehicles should drain NTU.
- Allow a friendly warpgate to slowly refill NTU through the lattice to prevent boring ANT runs, but also to create yet another way to sabotage through the lattice network by cutting it at vital points and thus denying the NTU flow.

[Rolfski]

Originally Posted by camycamera

and XP FOR SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDING BASES, WHY THE FUCK ISN'T IT IN YET HIGGLES?!

It was there in beta but got taken out for various reasons: One of them being that it made the game play more boring, having to wait for the defend timer all the time. The other being that it got exploited.

Originally Posted by kidriot

We tend to set before us small meaningful goals that give us a sense of accomplishment whenever we succeed. You have to play within your means and my outfit, with its 1.8 kdr avg, routinely takes on a Platoon. Sometimes if there's Enemy Squads we may not bite because the fights end so quickly. Key to small outfits are a few ingredients: communication, response time and mobility. Planetside 2 currently gives us all the tools to communicate, respond and stay mobile. Yes they could be better implemented but as it is we've made it work.

Sure, setting yourself challenging goals as a small squad can get you so far in this game but no matter how you look at it, the impact you can make as a small squad is rather limited atm. Besides that, we all want our epic The Alamo's/Thermopylae's at some point and the game atm just doesn't provide enough ingredients for this.

[Scourge]

There are two major reasons I see for the lack of options for small squads.

First off, the objective system. In the original Planetside, you could drop on top of a tower with three people. If you were a very coordinated team, you could defeat ten or more enemies within the tower, and begin hacking the tower. The respawn timer for a tower was 20 seconds, and it took a Advanced Hacker 22 seconds to complete a hack. This meant that you could clear the control console, get the hack off, and then try to survive against the one counter attack the spawn timer would allow.

In Planetside 2, three of the most coordinated and skilled players in the world would have a hard time taking a outpost against ten people. For seven minutes, the defenders get to spawn an infinite number of times, and the attackers have to lock down three totally separate flags.

Planetside 2 lacks decisive objective points, which are what coordinated groups thrive around. Notice how the really organized outfits in Planetside 1 would specialize in things such as rapid resecures of control consoles, and generator holds. These small constricted areas, with limited entrance points, reduced the effectiveness of having more numbers. This in turn made coordination and small arms tactics determine the victor.

Finally, the other problem. There is very little actual teamwork options offered to players.

Now, people will point out Medics, engineers repairing MAXes, ect. The problem is that these are caste society jobs. I hardly consider someone following a MAX suit with his repair tool out, holding down Mouse 1, teamwork.

Small Outfits in Planetside 1 would typically have every single person be an advanced medic. This meant that literally everyone could revive a teammate. However, reviving involved standing still over their body for several seconds. This made it necessary to have someone cover the medic. In another example, rather then magical ammo boxes that dispense infinite bullets and rockets, everyone had an inventory, and could share their own ammo with squad mates, in order to stretch limited supplies between them.

Little design decisions like this made teamwork an active process. Something that you planned to do, and made sacrifices accordingly, rather then simply did because of the class you chose while respawning. And in return, teamwork was way, way more rewarding, letting every single person in the game potentially be able to revive you, or share his ammo with you.

Small squads do not have enough decisive objectives, and they do not have enough tools for more coordination to make them more powerful. I could elaborate on solutions for these two problems, but solutions for either one would be as TL : DR as this post is.

[Qwan]

Originally Posted by waldizzo

Give all bases a meaningful benefit that hurts to lose. Put a couple of generators in defensible locations at the bases. If the gens are blown, the base benefit is gone.

Smaller groups will target these for destruction. In turn, smaller groups will respond.

The base benefits need to be reviewed for this to work though. As they are now, no one will care if they lose a bioloab or amp station benefit.

This would be a nice.
Also I would like to say bringing back the rek, for those that dont know it was a device used for hacking in PS1 any class could get it (exept maxes of course) if you spent the certs, In PS2 the only hacker is the infiltrator class. I think they should make it so that any class can hack as long as you spend the certs for the skill or (rek), this will free up a slots, when you want to make a squad with medics, engi's and maxes. Sometimes when assaulting a base you forget to bring a cloaker and then your stuck without a hacker to hack turrets and terminals. I think they should make the Rek common pool if you spend the certs.
@Scourge Making it so that all players can bring back other players, maybe not as fast and effective as the medic class but if a heavy assualt can bend over and hit you with a stem pack and get your ass back (maybe with half health or quarter health)to the fight this would make smaller squads more effective, in small unit operations, because sometimes the medic isnt in the same room.

[ItZMuRdA]

Originally Posted by Scourge

There are two major reasons I see for the lack of options for small squads...

Really liked this post -- hit home to much of the gameplay I remember from PS1 and even made me realize a few reasons why PS2 is so different that I hadn't thought of prior. Thanks for the contribution, Scourge.

You too, kidRiot, glad to see outfits like FC and HT getting involved in the thread. While the game in its current state isn't bad by any means, I do think we could have a more enjoyable and effective small squad experience, and hopefully we all can make a difference right here.

Thanks again guys -- keep it up.

p.s. happy anniversary.

[Aveox]

Originally Posted by Scourge

The respawn timer for a tower was 20 seconds, and it took a Advanced Hacker 22 seconds to complete a hack. This meant that you could clear the control console, get the hack off, and then try to survive against the one counter attack the spawn timer would allow.

I mentioned the exact same thing on my outfit forums the other day when we discussed tower design. PS2 is desperately missing intelligent design decisions like this. The typical PS1 tower was in fact a masterpiece of base design: Defenders would come up from the basement; Attackers typically dropped in from the roof, putting the CC right in the middle and allowing for push/pull warfare on the stairs.
The stairway design itself allowed for cover yet is wide enough that it doesn't become a chokepoint.
Doors were placed between the spawn point and CC, allowing the option to cut off the defenders and in turn give defenders the option to deny attackers access to the CC from the ground level.
None of this is in PS2's swiss cheese buildings.

[ThatGoatGuy]

Am I the only one who thinks that the OP proves that bases are near indefensible?

[Hmr85]

Originally Posted by Scourge

There are two major reasons I see for the lack of options for small squads...

QFT!!

This is absolutely spot on and I couldn't agree more. Well said.

[Stanis]

Originally Posted by Scourge

There are two major reasons I see for the lack of options for small squads.

First off, the objective system. In the original Planetside, you could drop on top of a tower with three people. If you were a very coordinated team, you could defeat ten or more enemies within the tower, and begin hacking the tower. The respawn timer for a tower was 20 seconds, and it took a Advanced Hacker 22 seconds to complete a hack. This meant that you could clear the control console, get the hack off, and then try to survive against the one counter attack the spawn timer would allow.

I'd always thought the developers gave us the capture points and satellites with a similar mechanic so that we are supposedly getting many attacks and counter-attacks per successful takeover of a hex. Forcing us to keep fighting.

Wait until lattice goes live. The satellites become major speedbumps.

They may need to take some 'hexes' out of the links. They can be 'secured' to provide a temporary spawn/terminals but don't count for overall territory control.
We will lack anything really similar to the PS1 towers.

[Stanis]

Combat has evolved on miller - we don't have many huge outfits fielding several platoons each but we do have alliances.

War has escalated to the point where its platoons v. platoons in attack and defence.


We need objectives that make a difference to force organised players to respond.
We can't get their attention and pull them to another continent, that aspect of gameplay isn't present.

We've had facility benefits mentioned time and again.

We have no resource flow to interdict
No channels of reinforcement or material to attack

There are few locations where a determined squad can setup shop and create a distraction or nuisance that the enemy have to respond - because unless the hex is at risk of capture nothing else really matters.


I had put a post up a long time ago that each hex that wasn't a main base needed purpose.
Indar Comm Array - there is a clue in the name.
For each main facility there should be a comm array (resource income), capitol shield generator (big av/aa shield), uplink centre (radar/interlink benefit)

Sub bases that matter to have these benefits passed across the continent but also to this specific base.
Lattice changes means theres won't be at risk - so the idea doesn't translate.

Right now its a big deathmatch

[NewSith]

Originally Posted by Scourge

There are two major reasons I see for the lack of options for small squads.

First off, the objective system. In the original Planetside, you could drop on top of a tower with three people. If you were a very coordinated team, you could defeat ten or more enemies within the tower, and begin hacking the tower. The respawn timer for a tower was 20 seconds, and it took a Advanced Hacker 22 seconds to complete a hack. This meant that you could clear the control console, get the hack off, and then try to survive against the one counter attack the spawn timer would allow.

In Planetside 2, three of the most coordinated and skilled players in the world would have a hard time taking a outpost against ten people. For seven minutes, the defenders get to spawn an infinite number of times, and the attackers have to lock down three totally separate flags.

Planetside 2 lacks decisive objective points, which are what coordinated groups thrive around. Notice how the really organized outfits in Planetside 1 would specialize in things such as rapid resecures of control consoles, and generator holds. These small constricted areas, with limited entrance points, reduced the effectiveness of having more numbers. This in turn made coordination and small arms tactics determine the victor.

With part 2, I agree. With this however I do not. During beta, the maximum capture time on an outpost was 40 seconds, plus the adjacency time reduction. 10 people were almost always losing to 5 attacking persons (imagine what a steamroll it was in a zerg). The reason for that was not the timer mechanic, but a thing that still haunts auraxis - CP positions which allow attackers to orchestrate a spawn position closer than the defenders' spawn room. In fact there waaaaay to many architectural faults in the game.

[Rahabib]

I think the game may be too far removed for meaningful outcomes for any size squads.

1) resources are too plentiful. Lattice doesn't change this. even if they make things more expensive, the fact is because every single base or territory generates resources you can't cut off resources to add higher level of strategy to the game.
fix- make it so that only the main 9 large bases generate resources and the smaller bases are simply connectors for resource flow. lose a base its a big deal. lose a connector, resources cant transfer but the base can still generate vehicles you need but only at that base until the connection is made.

2) Bases are too easily captured. The flow of battle is: take a base, watch it be retaken within a few minutes. The lattice helps but the micro-battle instances to actually retake the base remains unchanged. More force-fields, more generators, etc. will help this. gens are a good way for small units to make a difference, but there are not enough that battles can spread out to make defense viable. Most bases ,IMO, should have multiple gens to take out and more bases should have them. I also would like to see game play like hacking, scramblers (for anti-hacking), CTF (bases with items that can be captured then transplanted at your base to steal technology, etc.)

3) meaningful squad mechanics. even large scale squads don't have much incentive to stay in that squad. sure its fun to chat with friends and use a squad beacon, but beyond that, there isn't much depth. It will be nice once we have way points and outfit/squad benefit bonuses (eg. as your squad can hold a special facility the whole outfit gains a bonus to resources, XP, or special vehicles. Eg. Hold the interlink facility your outfit gets faster instant actions, etc.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

It was there in beta but got taken out for various reasons: One of them being that it made the game play more boring, having to wait for the defend timer all the time. The other being that it got exploited.

That makes no sense to me because those exact same flaws are present in the current system for capture xp.

The core problem here is that PS2 forces you to wait at the base in order for it to credit you with any xp for the base capture/defence, and gives you 100% of that xp regardless of whether you were there for the whole fight or just for the last 10 seconds.

To fix this (and thus negate any objections to awarding defence xp) just use PS1's system: award xp for base capture/defence regardless of whether you're still at the base when the fight ends - but award a proportion of the xp total based on how much of the fight you were present for.

Scaling the capture/defence xp based on the number of people present during the fight and/or the number of kills would also help to avoid exploits and cut down on ghost capping. Again, PS1 did this and it worked fine - so I've never understood why PS2 doesn't.