Proposed ESF nerf: Why? Will it improve revenue?

[snafus]

Originally Posted by SolLeks

The RM does not still work, hitting the after burners after doing the flip portion of it makes you move slower than holding space.

I guess it 'works' in the sense you can still turn and face your opponent, if you like being a non moving, hovering duck.

Yep, if the pilot behind you is half way competent you will either be dead or near flames by the time you pull the 180.

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by snafus

Yep, if the pilot behind you is half way competent you will either be dead or near flames by the time you pull the 180.

Hell, this is already true ^_^

[Galron]

Flying as ESF is really all my play style is based around anymore. I'll get my free certs, pull an ESF and log after its popped. I don't support any Nerf to the one thing I still like to do in this game.

[Memeotis]

I think SOE have come to the realization that the ESFs are not conducive to combined arms gameplay. Theoretically it can do anything you would want from an aircraft, but due to this exact fact, pilots choose not to. Being a successful pilot is not the same as successful team player. Working with ground troops, and even other aircraft limits you as an ESF pilot.

The core problem the ESFs have is that they are not conditioned by many other things. Hopefully this is the beginning of SOE changing it such that it makes more sense for ESFs to attack other ESFs. I think the ESF should be seen as an air to air fighter, whose primary focus is other air targets.

Unfortunately, this means removing mechanics from the ESF that dogfighters love. And that's really the true problem. On one end you have unique A2A combat, and on the other you have imbalanced air to ground relationships.

However, since the majority of ESF pilots avoid A2A, the situation is hardly optimal. Ideally (for the ESF-enthusiasts) the mechanics stay the same, while incentives keep ESF pilots from attacking ground. But you can't change that. Attacking ground targets is simply too easy.

So here is what I propose. A scenario where everybody wins. Make a new type of Battle island designed for ESF combat. These ESFs will remain as the are now (able to do reverse maneuver, etc). At the same time, nerf the continental ESFs. Turn them into ordinary fighters that fly in straight lines and only attack ground targets with strafing runs.

With this solution you not only keep the ESFs that people, who dogfight, love, you also balance the continental combat, you also force continental ESF pilots to cooperate with and depend on other players. On top of that, you make the fights bigger for conventional ESFs. 24v24 perhaps? And finally, you also make room for more types of aircraft for the continents. Slow, but maneuverable apache-esque gunships, and small 6-man transport hovercrafts. Why? Because now that the ESF A2G threat has been lowered, you can safely nerf AA and there won't be any super-strong ESFs around, who would kill these types of aircraft with ease.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by Memeotis

I think SOE have come to the realization that the ESFs are not conducive to combined arms gameplay. Theoretically it can do anything you would want from an aircraft, but due to this exact fact, pilots choose not to. Being a successful pilot is not the same as successful team player. Working with ground troops, and even other aircraft limits you as an ESF pilot.

The core problem the ESFs have is that they are not conditioned by many other things. Hopefully this is the beginning of SOE changing it such that it makes more sense for ESFs to attack other ESFs. I think the ESF should be seen as an air to air fighter, whose primary focus is other air targets.

Unfortunately, this means removing mechanics from the ESF that dogfighters love. And that's really the true problem. On one end you have unique A2A combat, and on the other you have imbalanced air to ground relationships.

However, since the majority of ESF pilots avoid A2A, the situation is hardly optimal. Ideally (for the ESF-enthusiasts) the mechanics stay the same, while incentives keep ESF pilots from attacking ground. But you can't change that. Attacking ground targets is simply too easy.

So here is what I propose. A scenario where everybody wins. Make a new type of Battle island designed for ESF combat. These ESFs will remain as the are now (able to do reverse maneuver, etc). At the same time, nerf the continental ESFs. Turn them into ordinary fighters that fly in straight lines and only attack ground targets with strafing runs.

With this solution you not only keep the ESFs that people, who dogfight, love, you also balance the continental combat, you also force continental ESF pilots to cooperate with and depend on other players. On top of that, you make the fights bigger for conventional ESFs. 24v24 perhaps? And finally, you also make room for more types of aircraft for the continents. Slow, but maneuverable apache-esque gunships, and small 6-man transport hovercrafts. Why? Because now that the ESF A2G threat has been lowered, you can safely nerf AA and there won't be any super-strong ESFs around, who would kill these types of aircraft with ease.

First off ESF are absolutely conductive to a combined arms. I cannot say how many times our air wing has won the fight for our ground forces. You can't just lump all pilots into the same category. Though working with ground forces may be much more dangerous then simply doing A2A runs, to say it doesn't happen is false. But I agree also that there are players that like to simply farm in ESF, but the same can be said for any class or vehicle so that really isn't a good point.

And I'd really like to know how A2G ESF are imbalanced? From the stats we are under performing across the board in comparison to ground vehicles and infantry. And the multitudes of AA have always kept ground forces in the best position for power, as long as ground use them. Air being OP hasn't been true since launch and SOE has kept a close eye on that.

Over all the balance between air and ground right now is actually pretty good, minus Libs still being under powered. Taking away aspects of the game and putting them on battle islands seems silly and wasteful. I play this game to have fun and support my team. I really don't want to be forced to fight on one continent to fly the way I enjoy.

The big factor here is there are no imbalances between air or ground. This whole debacle is not an intended A2G nerf but rather an attempt at making ESF more approachable for newer or bad players. Though I think you have some fun ideas of adding more vehicles, but nerfing current flight mechanics due to some perceived imbalance is disturbing to me.

[Sledgecrushr]

I totally agree that it wouldnt work well either to maintain two types of flight mechanics to me that seems confusing. And also i dont think a straight up nerf of vertical thrusters is the way to go I would much rather enhance the existing gameplay by making it more dynamic and a bit more difficult. What soe needs to do is introduce some more elements to the flight game. You should really accelerate when you turn the nose down and acceleration should bleed off slowly unless you work to lose velocity. Come on SOE make flying BETTER!!!

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by Memeotis

I think SOE have come to the realization that the ESFs are not conducive to combined arms gameplay. Theoretically it can do anything you would want from an aircraft, but due to this exact fact, pilots choose not to. Being a successful pilot is not the same as successful team player. Working with ground troops, and even other aircraft limits you as an ESF pilot.

The core problem the ESFs have is that they are not conditioned by many other things. Hopefully this is the beginning of SOE changing it such that it makes more sense for ESFs to attack other ESFs. I think the ESF should be seen as an air to air fighter, whose primary focus is other air targets.

Unfortunately, this means removing mechanics from the ESF that dogfighters love. And that's really the true problem. On one end you have unique A2A combat, and on the other you have imbalanced air to ground relationships.

However, since the majority of ESF pilots avoid A2A, the situation is hardly optimal. Ideally (for the ESF-enthusiasts) the mechanics stay the same, while incentives keep ESF pilots from attacking ground. But you can't change that. Attacking ground targets is simply too easy.

So here is what I propose. A scenario where everybody wins. Make a new type of Battle island designed for ESF combat. These ESFs will remain as the are now (able to do reverse maneuver, etc). At the same time, nerf the continental ESFs. Turn them into ordinary fighters that fly in straight lines and only attack ground targets with strafing runs.

With this solution you not only keep the ESFs that people, who dogfight, love, you also balance the continental combat, you also force continental ESF pilots to cooperate with and depend on other players. On top of that, you make the fights bigger for conventional ESFs. 24v24 perhaps? And finally, you also make room for more types of aircraft for the continents. Slow, but maneuverable apache-esque gunships, and small 6-man transport hovercrafts. Why? Because now that the ESF A2G threat has been lowered, you can safely nerf AA and there won't be any super-strong ESFs around, who would kill these types of aircraft with ease.

Dude, I fly in support of my ground troops 90% of the time. Hell, sometimes I lead the squad in my ESF wile they are all on the ground (landing for beacon duty is a pain though)

When I am in the air, my platoon knows that unless there are a large number of aircraft that overwhelm me, or an ace flies in that I have trouble with, they are safe from almost all air targets, all the wile I fly ahead and scout bases and I spot / attack sundies and other tanks / infantry with my A2A specced ESF.

Also, there is no reason not to let ESF attack the ground. The ground is where the game is won or lost. If you can't have your own factions ESF clear the skys, or have AA up, then your failing in the combined arms section of this game!

ESF have to be able to attack ground targets if they are to matter at all in this game. Libs are not that prevalent due to all the lockons and AA as well as ESF hunting them down, though when I fly in support of libs, the ESF are no worry, but they still get tuns of ground fire that keeps them running often. It sounds like you just don't want anything in the air to be able to effect the ground game, thus you do not want a combined arms game.

[Memeotis]

Originally Posted by snafus

First off ESF are absolutely conductive to a combined arms. I cannot say how many times our air wing has won the fight for our ground forces. You can't just lump all pilots into the same category. Though working with ground forces may be much more dangerous then simply doing A2A runs, to say it doesn't happen is false. But I agree also that there are players that like to simply farm in ESF, but the same can be said for any class or vehicle so that really isn't a good point.

And I'd really like to know how A2G ESF are imbalanced? From the stats we are under performing across the board in comparison to ground vehicles and infantry. And the multitudes of AA have always kept ground forces in the best position for power, as long as ground use them. Air being OP hasn't been true since launch and SOE has kept a close eye on that.

Over all the balance between air and ground right now is actually pretty good, minus Libs still being under powered. Taking away aspects of the game and putting them on battle islands seems silly and wasteful. I play this game to have fun and support my team. I really don't want to be forced to fight on one continent to fly the way I enjoy.

The big factor here is there are no imbalances between air or ground. This whole debacle is not an intended A2G nerf but rather an attempt at making ESF more approachable for newer or bad players. Though I think you have some fun ideas of adding more vehicles, but nerfing current flight mechanics due to some perceived imbalance is disturbing to me.

Yes. I agree, the ESF has a huge potential to work closely with the troops on the ground. Flying around in close proximity to a tank column, calling out incoming targets and swooping down to assist with some focused fire. The thing is, they don't. Some might, but the vast majority of them don't, because it works against the in-built incentive-structure created by the versatility of the ESFs mechanics.

Assume you fly around with an ESF with rocket pods. This setup makes you a threat to just about anything. The only time you are kept away from ground troops is when they have a concentrated amount of AA. If you were any other type of vehicle or infantry, you would have to deal with this issue; you would have to find way to overcome it. As an ESF, you simply fly to another place, because you have the speed for that. People on the ground have to sacrifice something in order to keep you at bay (bursters, skyguard, lock-on). You don't. Your speed and maneuverability makes you capable of killing ground targets regardless of what it is, it might just take you a little longer.

This is a terrible relationship. Compare this to a apache-esque gunship. Slow, good maneuverability, but you can't just run away and look for other easy pickings. If you want to be successful you are forced to engage in some degree of teamwork.

Imagine cruising around and you see a small squad without any AA. As an ESF, you might have to retreat occasionally, but you know you can widdle them down, one at a time. Why? Because you can boost away if you are at low health, and, more crucially, you can hover in the air at awkward angles. If an apache gun ship wanted to fire his rockets straight beneath himself, he would force himself into a dive. He would lose height, and even if the ground targets don't have any AA, you are now low enough for them to more easily hit you with dumb-fire rockets and whatnot.

And as for how lucrative this tactic can be. The players you see who have insane SPM and KD/r are all ESF pilots. Just look at the top of the leaderboards.

The thing dedicated ESF pilots want is great dogfights, and PS2 can provide that. Just not to the extent they want. So what exactly is wrong with the battle island setup I proposed? It would be easy to justify. Simply say the the current ESFs are too expensive an investment to have flying around on the continents. However, for the very important, small scale battles, the factions are willing to spend the extra amount to use their top-of-the-line aircraft.

The dogfighters are never going to get the really great battles they deserve in the current format, and at the same time, having the current ESFs on the big continents, is imbalancing the gameplay.

[SolLeks]

Most people don't seem to work in a team at all in this game, I don't understand your point.

Also FYI, our aircraft fly slower than an apache gunship does.

And last edit, the change that the devs wanted to make would stop NOTHING AT ALL, NOTHING, NOTHING and again NOTHING that you just posted that you want changed.

[pixelshader]

1. The main focus of esf pilots (and since several patches ago, the most lucrative thing to do in an esf) is always killing other esf. If you don't kill them they will kill you. The only time you aren't intently focused on killing other esf is when there aren't any around, which means you're probably farming a spawn somewhere away from any real battle. The nerf on pts does nothing to change any of this.

2. ESF have enough hover power to run circles around ground targets without even touching the afterburner, the nerf again does nothing to change this. The devs intentions are to lower the number of rocket pod using esf by doing things like making afterburner tanks very attractive and introducing a bunch of new secondaries that all suck at killing infantry. I personally have the rotary show up as between 50-65% of all my kills even when farming infantry hard, but I can still attest to the fact that if I don't equip rocket pods I am a massively weaker threat to infantry. If three or four guys just decide to shoot me with small arms I probably won't have the raw easy-to-aim firepower to beat them face to face, unless they all stand still next to each other or something.

It is true that rocket pod esf are massively overpowered when flown over small scale infantry fights, but nothing short of gutting completely their flight system will change this. Again the devs are working to fix it by directly making rocket pods less attractive.

3. In big fights esf a2g already sucks so hard as to be a non factor. When there is 80 guys on the ground the density of random anti air things is automatically too high to fly for 90% of pilots. Organised air strikes can make it through on sheer numbers which is great I guess. In any case the tactic for flying a2g over big battles has been hit and run for months and months already now. Fast passes starting in cover, striking, then retreating back into cover. The closest thing to hovering being throttling down a little while striking to squeeze out a quarter second more firing time.

tl;dr for the 100th time the reverse nerf on pts doesn't do anything to a2g

[Wahooo]

Originally Posted by pixelshader

The devs intentions are to lower the number of rocket pod using esf by doing things like making afterburner tanks very attractive and introducing a bunch of new secondaries

tl;dr for the 100th time the reverse nerf on pts doesn't do anything to a2g

I think this was the thing.

It isn't so much a desire to nerf ESF V. Ground, I think that balance is as close to being found as we've ever been.

The issue is I don't think the devs ever intended a set load out to be "The Standard". Right now with the ESFs there is very little deviation from Hover Frame and Rocket Pods. There is a bit less consensus on the nose gun, but the fact is they would LIKE by design for people to make choices on their load out and have a give and take between one or the other. Right now, the other choices for ESF builds are inferior.

How do you change that? A thought was nerfing V-thrust but is it a good trade off? Is there being a "standard" for ESF load out actually a bad thing?

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by Wahooo

I think this was the thing.

It isn't so much a desire to nerf ESF V. Ground, I think that balance is as close to being found as we've ever been.

The issue is I don't think the devs ever intended a set load out to be "The Standard". Right now with the ESFs there is very little deviation from Hover Frame and Rocket Pods. There is a bit less consensus on the nose gun, but the fact is they would LIKE by design for people to make choices on their load out and have a give and take between one or the other. Right now, the other choices for ESF builds are inferior.

How do you change that? A thought was nerfing V-thrust but is it a good trade off? Is there being a "standard" for ESF load out actually a bad thing?

I don't think the standard is really rocketpods anymore.

I see quite a few pilots running A2AM, and quite a few running rockets, then you have noobs and vets running AB tanks.

Hover + rockets being the norm has long passed since the last few RP nerfs.

[pixelshader]

Originally Posted by Wahooo

they would LIKE by design for people to make choices on their load out and have a give and take between one or the other. Right now, the other choices for ESF builds are inferior.

How do you change that? A thought was nerfing V-thrust but is it a good trade off? Is there being a "standard" for ESF load out actually a bad thing?

On live you can use whatever frame you want and it doesn't really matter because you can easily compensate for weak normal vthrust with powerful afterburner vthrust when you need it. The hover frame has no effect on the strength of the reverse, only the racer frame boosts it on live.

On pts you obviously don't have a powerful afterburner vthrust anymore so you're forced into using hover frame to have acceptable mobility. On top of that they've changed something and the hover frame's boost now counts while afterburner vthrusting, so in effect it now boosts the reverse where it doesn't do that on live. Racer also no longer boosts the reverse.

In short the change is a huge step back for frame diversity, for whatever that is worth. I myself believe that despite any devs best effort one or two loadouts will always be found superior.

[Obstruction]

this is once again completely derailed but i'd like to point out that you guys are basically complaining that rock beats scissors here.

if ground has enough population in an area and even a percentage of units use the myriad AA tools available, air space can be denied. that's when they get to be rock.

if they don't use their AA or there's like 5 of them shooting carbines at a Lib, that's when they get to be scissors.

if a group of infantry line up on a ridge and kill an armor column with rockets and turrets, no one cries foul because that is "fair play" if you are a ground player.

if a group of tanks flanks and kills a sunderer and group of infantry, no one says it's unfair either.

if multiple AA MAX units and heavies with lock-ons clown-car out of a sundy in the middle of the road and gank a hungry air unit before they can get away, that is especially fair. in fact i'm sure among those clowns in question it is relished with righteous indignation.

but if airborne units win through superior positioning and tactics (preparing an exit before the run, delivering ordinance quickly and accurately, disengaging before being shot down) then come the groundlings chanting nerf.

i've said before and i'll say again, i am not that great on the ground. i don't enjoy it, i don't often play there, i've developed my characters to never need to spend much time there, and because of this lack of practice i am just not that practiced. so i'm average on my good days.

but i still don't begrudge ground for being what it is, and playing to its strengths, when i am flying and i happen to end up being the scissors.

that's the difference here.

but again this is wildly derailed from the topic at hand, which is really about dumbing down a fighting system that is unique in gaming.

at least, i guess if this nerf goes through it will be the first indirect buff to Libs since who-knows-when.

[phungus]

In my hover sythe, I didn't notice that much of a difference reversing.

The main effect on my hover sythe was reduced dodge speed in hovermode. What are the other impacts on the ESF of this change?