"Point popups"

[Skitrel]

Originally Posted by Trolltaxi

I hate it for it is childish... feeling happy and uber for a popping "+100 XP" in your face is just stupid. "Oh boy, another 100 XP! Oh-boy-oh-boy-oh-BOOOOY!"

You may think this, but psychologically it creates a cathartic release and that's why it's become a staple of fps games. Gaming psychology, it's part of what creates and maintains an addiction in players.

This debate won't change anything at all, it's going to be in the game because it's part of what sucks in and maintains players playing more. Yes, even you folks that say you dislike it.

[Graywolves]

Originally Posted by Skitrel

You may think this, but psychologically it creates a cathartic release and that's why it's become a staple of fps games. Gaming psychology, it's part of what creates and maintains an addiction in players.

This debate won't change anything at all, it's going to be in the game because it's part of what sucks in and maintains players playing more. Yes, even you folks that say you dislike it.

Actually if someone doesn't like the feature there is a negative effect.

It's important to keep in mind that there are always exceptions, especially in psychology.


Some people don't need it and don't want it. No harm in moving it or even making it disappear for those players.

Players who go to the games without the points don't find themselves going back to game modes with the points and feel better.

[ThGlump]

Originally Posted by Skitrel

You may think this, but psychologically it creates a cathartic release and that's why it's become a staple of fps games. Gaming psychology, it's part of what creates and maintains an addiction in players.

Part of that is from the winning condition. Most of games that spam you with points every kill, have those points as placement condition. And everyone like to be first so they enjoy every 100points that pop on the screen.

But planteside dont have that leaderboard, that would make those points worth it, so its unnecessary spam.

If its actually xp then unless xp per kill are varied like in ps1 there is no need for showing it either as i know how much i got per kill. If its varied i would like to see it, but in more convenient place and not in the middle of the screen.

[Skitrel]

Originally Posted by DeeTwoEh

Whoa whoa whoa...What's wrong with adding an option that allows you toggle them on or off? Why does it have to be one or the other with you people?

Some people like pop up exp, some don't. What's wrong with allowing the player to choose?

Keep it on by default so it appeals to all the CoD/BF people who are used to that thing and let the veteran players, or people who don't prefer it to be able to switch it off. I really don't see the problem.

Nothing, in the eyes of the player. In the eyes of game designers it's removing a key feature that plays a part in gamer psychology and addiction. Making successful games isn't just about making a good game anymore, that's part of it, the other part is the psychology, how to make players play more, play longer, and invest themselves in a game. For this reason, I seriously do not see it going away, and fully understand that.

For battlefield players, here's an example: http://i.imgur.com/GAyOv.png

You will get some sort of positive cathartic release from seeing this image, those of you that have played enough will understand entirely why. This served as my background for a while purely because of this. It's a fun little piece of psychology in gamers. For those that don't play battlefield, that's an abstract modern art representation of what the kill+points popups in BF3 look like, or at least, the colours, it still has the same effect because it becomes mentally engrained into the player. You don't realise this playing, but that's what those popups do, they play a role in positive reinforcements and cathartic good feelings in players, which affects their addiction to the game. Removing anything that does this is simply a bad decision from a design and business point of view, hence why I sincerely doubt you'll see any way to make them go away.

And finally, as a secondary purpose, they serve as instantly recognisable kill confirmations.

[Death2All]

Originally Posted by Skitrel

Nothing, in the eyes of the player. In the eyes of game designers it's removing a key feature that plays a part in gamer psychology and addiction. Making successful games isn't just about making a good game anymore, that's part of it, the other part is the psychology, how to make players play more, play longer, and invest themselves in a game. For this reason, I seriously do not see it going away, and fully understand that.

For battlefield players, here's an example: http://i.imgur.com/GAyOv.png

You will get some sort of positive cathartic release from seeing this image, those of you that have played enough will understand entirely why. This served as my background for a while purely because of this. It's a fun little piece of psychology in gamers. For those that don't play battlefield, that's an abstract modern art representation of what the kill+points popups in BF3 look like, or at least, the colours, it still has the same effect because it becomes mentally engrained into the player. You don't realise this playing, but that's what those popups do, they play a role in positive reinforcements and cathartic good feelings in players, which affects their addiction to the game. Removing anything that does this is simply a bad decision from a design and business point of view, hence why I sincerely doubt you'll see any way to make them go away.

And finally, as a secondary purpose, they serve as instantly recognisable kill confirmations.

If the only thing this game has to keep players hooked is little numbers periodically popping up, then the game is screwed. There's more to keeping players hooked than the strange psychological theories you have.


Even if that were the case, maybe I don't want to be subconsciously hypnotized into playing the game for hours by little numbers contentiously popping up in my screen. In fact, I do play Battlefield and those numbers actually piss me off and make me want to play the game LESS.


Also, you could already recognize your kill confirmation in PS1, it was listed in the killspam box. You could easily tell in your peripheral vision when you got a kill because you'd see an icon separated by a few lines of text explaining that you got the kill and how much it was worth. Besides, it's like I'm going to shoot at a guy then stutter around for a few seconds in confusion because I didn't know if I got the kill or not.

[Skitrel]

Originally Posted by DeeTwoEh

If the only thing this game has to keep players hooked is little numbers periodically popping up, then the game is screwed. There's more to keeping players hooked than the strange psychological theories you have.


Even if that were the case, maybe I don't want to be subconsciously hypnotized into playing the game for hours by little numbers contentiously popping up in my screen. In fact, I do play Battlefield and those numbers actually piss me off and make me want to play the game LESS.

You might not want to be. You're going to be though. In fact, that's what games have always been about since the days of the arcade.

"What can we do to addict players better and make them put more coins in the machine?"

The more you play, the more chance of you putting money in the machine. That's why the game will do absolutely everything it can to keep you playing. Not a bad thing, it is ultimately a part of why you enjoy the game in fact, though you won't recognise the psychological factors causing that, they're there, and they're messing with you.

Cod's taking it to a new level lately, even implementing it in their DLC release strategies. Anyone ever noticed how communities get restless? When there's no news and nothing to distract them they start looking at the flaws of the game and complaining. Battlefield is seeing that BIG TIME lately with the huge amount of time since last patch/DLC. Cod's counter? Release maps 1 at a time instead of in a pack, constantly give the players something else to talk about other than their problems. They forget the negatives, enjoy the game more, and spend more.

People don't realise the amount of psychology that goes into decisions in games, popup point announcements are one of those things. While in theory, talking about them on a forum, not in game, not playing, it's easier to dissect and say, when not under their influence "These are bad". In game however is an entirely different thing, and those little points make people feel good, over, and over, and over, and over again. They have exactly the same repetitive positive effects the feelings of achievements players of Zynga games get doing their little repetitive tasks in Farmvillemoblordskitchensimwhatever crap they're making now.

Ultimately, character progression, XP, unlocking crap. One can argue that NONE of those things should have ever entered FPS games. They're all unnecessary, they simply lock the player away from using stuff. The entire system is just a psychological tool to make you play more, and always has been.

[Death2All]

Originally Posted by Skitrel

You might not want to be. You're going to be though. In fact, that's what games have always been about since the days of the arcade.

"What can we do to addict players better and make them put more coins in the machine?"

The more you play, the more chance of you putting money in the machine. That's why the game will do absolutely everything it can to keep you playing. Not a bad thing, it is ultimately a part of why you enjoy the game in fact, though you won't recognise the psychological factors causing that, they're there, and they're messing with you.

Cod's taking it to a new level lately, even implementing it in their DLC release strategies. Anyone ever noticed how communities get restless? When there's no news and nothing to distract them they start looking at the flaws of the game and complaining. Battlefield is seeing that BIG TIME lately with the huge amount of time since last patch/DLC. Cod's counter? Release maps 1 at a time instead of in a pack, constantly give the players something else to talk about other than their problems. They forget the negatives, enjoy the game more, and spend more.

People don't realise the amount of psychology that goes into decisions in games, popup point announcements are one of those things. While in theory, talking about them on a forum, not in game, not playing, it's easier to dissect and say, when not under their influence "These are bad". In game however is an entirely different thing, and those little points make people feel good, over, and over, and over, and over again. They have exactly the same repetitive positive effects the feelings of achievements players of Zynga games get doing their little repetitive tasks in Farmvillemoblordskitchensimwhatever crap they're making now.

Ultimately, character progression, XP, unlocking crap. One can argue that NONE of those things should have ever entered FPS games. They're all unnecessary, they simply lock the player away from using stuff. The entire system is just a psychological tool to make you play more, and always has been.

K...you didn't at all answer anything that I replied to you with, you instead spout out a bunch of psychological bullshit that has no bearing or relevance to the discussion.

Yes, leveling up, unlocking weapons/equipment and adding new content are all avenues game developers use to keep the player hooked to the game and they're all features that are universally liked and are a staple to nearly every game out there.


Pop ups however are not universally liked. People dislike them, as it's evident to the thread. Some people genuinely dislikepop ups and would like a toggle to turn them off. They find them obtrusive and annoying. People hate shit popping up in their face, as it's evident with real pops ups on the internet. People get pop up blocker specifically to get rid of those things, because they annoy them.

You can keep preaching this "psychological positive reinforcement" all you want, but if people dislike a feature, they'll either dislike the game or not play it entirely. You can wipe your wiener over my face everyday, I'm not going to subconsciously start liking it because you do it all the time. If I hate it, I'm going to continue hating it.


Look, I'm not saying not to include them in the game at all, as I said, keep them on as default to attract the BF/CoD crowd or the people who come to expect them in FPS games. But leave it toggleable option for the people who dislike them. That's all I'm asking.


Fuck.

[Trolltaxi]

Look Skitrel pls be a good boy and either recite your sources or stop pretending Dr. Freud of gaming. (Yes, it is a bit of trolling in a psychological way... you're right, but pls look at my nickame and you will understand it. It is my desire... maybe daddy was bad to me - or too good?)

Referring on common sense I can tell you, that numbers popping into my face are nowhere near to cathartic at all. D2A explained you already - a game that needs those numbers to trigger the feel of accomplishment is a bad game that needs urgent uninstall.

Planetside was more than rewarding even without the (complex) xp system. Killing your enemies was not your goal, it was the way you achieved your goal. We were hacking bases, defending against hacks, escorted LLU-s, made antruns to power up bases... or we went to backhack the enemy on a secondary continent to help our empire on the primary. We did genholds, drained bases just for the fun. Or we were setting up defenses to secure key objectives.

We provided support to our teammates or even randoms, lead our squads or followed our leader, discussed targets or just had a chitchat... we generally had a good time while playing. If the enemy died during it - even better. We received some XP? Why not? But it wasn't about XP at all.

You know what? Outfits are the basis of the planetside feeling. These informal groups meant the urge to log in night after night. Your outfitmates, buddies, friends - whatever you call it... it hooked people and had them pay and play for month, for years.

See it? This is what PS had to offer - not flashy, poppy numbers.

[megamold]

i think skitrel makes a good point, i hear lots of people all over the internet ramble about the state of gaming in todays world(me included)

people blame this on many many things
the simple fact of the matter is that when gaming became "popular"commercialization set in.
and the psychology thing is just part of that commercialization

what i think is that some things we wont be able to get changed because of this reason, SOE told the dev team to make a game and gave them some ground rules.
now SOE doesnt really "care" what the game will be like, all they care about is thats its a succes and the psychology is a big part of that. so SOE might have forced the devs to use a popup reward

little fact: it's actually freud's cousing Edward Bernays that kind of pioneered this field of psychology

[Skitrel]

Unfortunately citation in gaming isn't as easy as you'd have it, there are very very few research papers in gaming beyond simply the effects of gaming on aggression.

What becomes standard in games is driven by what proves successful, but this is only ever noted through observation, rarely released and kept quite guarded by companies, their internal statistics. There is however Plenty to read on catharsis and it doesn't take long to understand why what I've explained is true after understanding the basics of why many of us play video games, particularly to relax.

Originally Posted by DeeTwoEh

K...you didn't at all answer anything that I replied to you with

Yes I did, I explained in quite a detailed manner why the option to turn of features that make a player want to play more won't be an option and would be silly for any smart developer to do, both for business and for the game - because they're features that make a player want to play more.

You can keep preaching this "psychological positive reinforcement" all you want, but if people dislike a feature, they'll either dislike the game or not play it entirely. You can wipe your wiener over my face everyday, I'm not going to subconsciously start liking it because you do it all the time. If I hate it, I'm going to continue hating it.

Now you're being a melodramatic. This is a very standard, very normal, in EVERY single fps feature, something I have never, ever seen people complain about, not once. It is one the most minor gripes in the world, doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest and so on.

Let's not be drama queens about some points. You are making it sound like it is the end of the world and you're going you refuse to play the game unless it is gone. This isn't important, at all.

fuck

Calm down.

[Graywolves]

Originally Posted by Skitrel

Unfortunately citation in gaming isn't as easy as you'd have it, there are very very few research papers in gaming beyond simply the effects of gaming on aggression.

What becomes standard in games is driven by what proves successful, but this is only ever noted through observation, rarely released and kept quite guarded by companies, their internal statistics. There is however Plenty to read on catharsis and it doesn't take long to understand why what I've explained is true after understanding the basics of why many of us play video games, particularly to relax.



Yes I did, I explained in quite a detailed manner why the option to turn of features that make a player want to play more won't be an option and would be silly for any smart developer to do, both for business and for the game - because they're features that make a player want to play more.



Now you're being a melodramatic. This is a very standard, very normal, in EVERY single fps feature, something I have never, ever seen people complain about, not once. It is one the most minor gripes in the world, doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest and so on.

Let's not be drama queens about some points. You are making it sound like it is the end of the world and you're going you refuse to play the game unless it is gone. This isn't important, at all.



Calm down.

You're giving it more power than it really has.

[Skitrel]

This is all very simple to clear up, the devs can run it off for a week in beta and get all the data they need to show themselves how it affects player behaviour, average playtimes, how people play and so on.

If it's not important to keeping people playing, you'll see an option, if it is, you won't. There is however a reason you see it in every. single. game.

[Figment]

IMO it reminds me of cheaper arcade games and it draws too much attention. I too would prefer the chat box option.

[Death2All]

Originally Posted by Skitrel

Now you're being a melodramatic. This is a very standard, very normal, in EVERY single fps feature, something I have never, ever seen people complain about, not once. It is one the most minor gripes in the world, doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest and so on.

Let's not be drama queens about some points. You are making it sound like it is the end of the world and you're going you refuse to play the game unless it is gone. This isn't important, at all.



Calm down.

I'm really glad you're not one of the people developing PS2 and I'm confident that the devs at SOE possess a better head on their shoulders and common sense than you do. Your argument is so completely narrow and subjective that's it sickening. The argument that flashy numbers are the only thing that keeps players hooked is just idiotic.

If all it took to make a game successful was to include numbers that pop up whenever you kill someone, why would they bother spending any time at all developing a whole new visually stunning engine, create new gameplay mechanics, develop all new weapons, vehicles and give the player tons of customization options?

Originally Posted by Skitrel

Now you're being a melodramatic. This is a very standard, very normal, in EVERY single fps feature, something I have never, ever seen people complain about, not once. It is one the most minor gripes in the world, doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest and so on.

I think now we can confirm that you didn't read the thread at all, and simply used it as an avenue to spout your psychological nonsense. My friend, let me introduce you to a skill I learned called "reading":

Originally Posted by DeeTwoEh

I too found that the exp pop ups to be annoying and very CoD esque. I thought the exp value showing in the chatbox worked perfectly fine, didn't need numbers and shit constantly spamming in my face.

Originally Posted by Graywolves

The idea of point pop up is that it gives players immediate gratification for players and makes killing other players feel even better since flashy points pop up telling you how you were rewarded.


I personally don't like it and feel that the reinforced satisfaction loses its effect quickly.


I wouldn't mind being able to toggle it off. Not a big deal if you can turn it off or move it.

Originally Posted by Ailos

I am also kinda skeptical about those XP popups, and given the option, would prefer them off. I don't think it's a bad idea to make that an optional UI element - perhaps default as on (so all the CoD kiddies feel at home), but one that us vets will turn off ('cos you know you'll be messing with the settings anyway).

Originally Posted by VioletZero

I'd rather just have a scrolling list of EXP you get above your health and ammo.

Originally Posted by XPquant

I really hope there is an option to disable all the exp spam.

Originally Posted by Zulthus

I hate things like this that just flash up on your screen. They're in the way and they get very annoying. ESPECIALLY the Double kill. MULTI KILL. M-M-M-M MONSTER KILL KILL KILL.....

Originally Posted by PrISM

In the chatbox, not floating in the middle of the screen like most games today. It's a terrible idea.

Originally Posted by Yutty

Hopefully this happens. I don't need some numbers popping up tell me how great i am i get gratification from just seeing a person drop. Same with the who killed who at the side. or at least allow us to make change the transparency so its not cluttering the screen as much.

Originally Posted by Vancha

As with everything, it's best to give people options (if possible). Personally I'd prefer this to having it spam my chat box, but then I'd also prefer having no message at all. I know most people like to keep track of how close they are to the next level, but I prefer not to think or know about it.

Originally Posted by Drakkonan

I vote for the battlefield 2 option. Grey, unobtrusive text in the corner, only instead of just say "you killed so-and-so", it'd say "you killed so-and-so +100" or better yet, "+100 you killed so-and-so".

Originally Posted by Gelnika

The solution here is pretty simple. Keep them in as default and give an option to disable them, that way everyone is happy.

Originally Posted by Trolltaxi

I hate it for it is childish... feeling happy and uber for a popping "+100 XP" in your face is just stupid. "Oh boy, another 100 XP! Oh-boy-oh-boy-oh-BOOOOY!"

PS with it's permanent world offers way more reward than flashy popups... These things alienate you from the game, break the athmosphere.

But getting a sum of your total XP since your last death (i.e. adding it to the "killcam" stats) is a good idea. Everyone satisfied, still it's not disturbing.

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

Just make it toggle-able.

Originally Posted by Eyeklops

Power of choice! Make the player figure out where they want it. Give the option for cross-hair pop-up, chatbox, dedicated "my points" chat style box, or "off."

Originally Posted by Rivenshield

I'm with OP. I think it sucks.

I also see absolutely no reason why they can't allow us to turn it off client-side.

Yeah, no one complains about it at all

[megamold]

i think he meant noone complains except for the community of a 10 year old game.

and hes not saying that the pupop is the only thing getting players hooked, its a combination of many many small thing like the popup.
company's use psychology all the time to make you buy crap you dont need/want, a videogame is no different.
and if you dont even realize that your wants and needs ( from toilet products to videogames ) are being influenced by PR people and commercials, then you are a great asset to capitalism

and exagerating an minimalising his point does not make you right