Higby on Air/AA balance.. Is it the fast track to Airside?

[Snipefrag]

Originally Posted by Xaine

Ah, I see!

So i can randomly take digs at people for no apparent reason, and its their problem if they react? I see how this works.

Here we go. Let me know if I do this wrong

Part of the fun of planetside is taking the piss out of the other factions. Are you new to this? And you did do it wrong.. You bit and got all offended before trying to recover your composure.



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[Bags]

I still don't understand why ESF get to be the counter to everything while requiring 0 teamwork and it boggles my mind that people think it should take a coordinated squad to take one out.

Originally Posted by Dragonskin

AA is deadly. This isn't COD. You aren't meant to be a 1 man army with all things balanced to a 1:1 ratio. This game focuses on team work.

What part of 1 man ESF focuses on teamwork...?

Originally Posted by Hamma

My Galaxy was taken out by single air turret on APPROACH to a Tower yesterday. This is with upgraded armor.

Aircraft are far to easily destroyed from the ground.

Okay, do you really think anyone thinks Galaxies are a problem? I haven't seen a galaxy do anything since release, and I'd have no problem with them taking a whole squad of people to take down...

That's pretty strawmanish because I only see people complaining about ESFs and not Liberators or Galaxies.

This is currently the problem: ESF can hover spam, or fly very close to ground targets while spamming rockets, and unless they're terrible pilots or more than 2 - 3 sources of AA are shooting at them, they can get away with it - nothing else in the game can get away with playing this badly. Any infantry or vehicle would be destroyed before it can get away, but air doesn't because it's so fast and strong. Something needs to give.

[Dragonskin]

Originally Posted by Duckforceone

problem is, one ESF, is a one man army. It can take down air, it can take down tanks, and it can take down infantry with impunity.

A few coordinated ESF's with 1-2 libs, can decimate all AA that's trying to kill it, almost no matter how many they are.

Also, the only people doing the AA job, are those that are in serious outfits. No casual player would be in AA, as they would simply not gain any xp and levels, while the pilots would still rake in 1000+ xp per mag of rocket pods.

I can agree, that AA should not do more damage, and Rocket pods should stay at their damage level.... if.. and i repeat, if, AA hits would give 1-2 xp points per hit. That would give ordinary people a reason to go into AA, as currently, when you go AA, you give up on earning XP...

"problem is, one ESF, is a one man army. It can take down air, it can take down tanks, and it can take down infantry with impunity."

Ok well if this was true then why follow it up with...

"A few coordinated ESF's with 1-2 libs, can decimate all AA that's trying to kill it, almost no matter how many they are."

So now it went from one ESF being a 1 man army to actually having a coordinated group decimating everything... so clearly one ESF is not a one man army at all.

"Also, the only people doing the AA job, are those that are in serious outfits. No casual player would be in AA, as they would simply not gain any xp and levels, while the pilots would still rake in 1000+ xp per mag of rocket pods."

I don't understand this statement. No one does AA because there is no exp in it? Unless you are in a burster max then you would have other options for getting exp because you could use your main gun to kill other things. If you were in a skyguard or turret then you can just get out to kill people. Even if you did focus on just AA there is enough air around heavy battles to get decent exp not to meantion you would help your faction actually cap the territory instead of being pushed out so that you could get the capturing exp.

I would also love to know how you get 1,000+ exp per mag of rocket pods. I can see that if you get lucky killing a fully loaded Galaxy or Sundy, but that is not the norm because Galaxies have AA turrets and competent gunners will kill you and Sundies have people inside that usually carry AA rockets. So it's by no means a regular event to make 1,000 exp per mag. Actually I think you have to be a pretty ballsy pilot to try to take on a galaxy solo. Most solo pilots will leave them alone because the ESF is not a one man army and 4 AA turrets are deadly.

[Bags]

Originally Posted by Dragonskin

I would also love to know how you get 1,000+ exp per mag of rocket pods. I can see that if you get lucky killing a fully loaded Galaxy or Sundy, but that is not the norm because Galaxies have AA turrets and competent gunners will kill you and Sundies have people inside that usually carry AA rockets. So it's by no means a regular event to make 1,000 exp per mag. Actually I think you have to be a pretty ballsy pilot to try to take on a galaxy solo. Most solo pilots will leave them alone because the ESF is not a one man army and 4 AA turrets are deadly.

I was assaulting a Biolab a week ago, and we were all on one of the air pads trying to get in, and every 10 - 20 seconds a mossie would do a pass and get 5 - 6 kills easily. I stopped going up there, but others didn't.

[Boomzor]

A deterrent?

Why should I be deterred?
They can't kill me.
Thus I have little to fear.

They can annoy me.
At best interrupt me killing with impunity.
Alas, I am many many times more agile than a max or skyguard when it comes to adjusting my angle of approach.
I may just turn that angle on whom ever made me mad.

I am the reaver pilot.
I have my breaker rockets and I can kill EVERYTHING on the field.
Except for my fellow fighter pilots in wrong colours,
but I have my nose gun for that.
I dare you to bring me anything I cannot handle.

Oh, you bring numbers?
*I* bring numbers.

--------------------

Now, I'm not the best of pilots, I admit that. But I am skilled enough to find it pretty damn easy mode.
I don't think AA really needs a buff (perhaps a *slight* increase in effective range) as much as breaker rockets need a nerf against anything but armoured targets.

If flak gets buffed by much more, liberators and galaxies will suffer because they're flying tubs and fridges.

[Dragonskin]

Originally Posted by Bags

I still don't understand why ESF get to be the counter to everything while requiring 0 teamwork and it boggles my mind that people think it should take a coordinated squad to take one out.



What part of 1 man ESF focuses on teamwork...?

You may not know this, but 1 ESF can't have A2G rockets and A2A rockets. It's impossible to perfectly counter both and flares have a long cool down. It's no different than tanks. 1 infantry soldier is probably not going to kill a competent lightning either. Yet I don't see you complaining about that.

Yet 1 Skygaurd can kill a ESF and 1 ESF with A2G rockets can kill a non-skygaurd lightning. Both are 1 man vehicles.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Mavvvy

Guys its a deterrent individually yes. But two Skyguards and a couple of guys with hawks, do keep the airspace clear.

I'm surprised that teamwork hasn't been already considered in the equation. No one expects a single heavy assault to hold up a tank push, so why should a lone Skyguards be able to take on multiple aircraft buy itself, give that guy a few buddies and its a battery which hits hard.

Even better co-ordinate with other air units setting up a flak-trap works wonders.

That said the hawk could use a little more punch.

Originally Posted by Snipefrag

Exactly, the people in this thread are thinking about things in a 1vs1 situation. Which in a MMOFPS like PS2 is exactly they way to screw balance up.

Just curious, but how many aircraft does it then take to kill a ground unit according to your teamwork argument?

[Dragonskin]

Originally Posted by Bags

I was assaulting a Biolab a week ago, and we were all on one of the air pads trying to get in, and every 10 - 20 seconds a mossie would do a pass and get 5 - 6 kills easily. I stopped going up there, but others didn't.

Umm... learn to AA. I mean you don't have to go up to the pad to hit the ESF with AA... you can do that from any of the surrounding towers from ground level and if you are on Mattherson that was probably Psychobuzzcut in his mossie.. I saw the live feed. No one tried to counter him.. it was a bunch of zerglings rushing to the pads to get mowed down.

Using zerglings to defend your statement is kinda pointless... zerglings are called that for a reason. They are fodder usually.

[Xaine]

Originally Posted by Snipefrag

Part of the fun of planetside is taking the piss out of the other factions. Are you new to this? And you did do it wrong.. You bit and got all offended before trying to recover your composure.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You were throwing back to a previous weapon, implying that the VS are used to having it easy (Which by the way, coming from a TR is beautiful). Suggesting that 'now it isn't so easy'.

That isn't you taking the piss, thats you bitching in a smug fashion.

Its always interesting watching people trying to change the meaning of their previous posts, after someone points out they're acting like a brat.

You're not very good at it though.

Oh and by the way, I didn't lose my composure. If you need to compose yourself to post on some forums I suggest you go outside, or get a job.

I actually agree with the points you've made. I just don't agree with you acting like a cunt while you make them.

[boogy]

I think the real issue is that infantry have no defense against air. Because of flak damage, infantry can not duck behind cover, and that feeling of being completely powerless to avoid instant death is what causes this imbalance imho. I also play air so I see how powerful AA can be. AA is not underpowered. Infantry just needs to be able to survive better rather than shoot air out quicker. Certing into the highest FLAK armor shourld completely make infantry invulnerable to air and tank unless hit point blank. Crates and wall should actually protect infantry.

[Bags]

Originally Posted by Dragonskin

You may not know this, but 1 ESF can't have A2G rockets and A2A rockets. It's impossible to perfectly counter both and flares have a long cool down. It's no different than tanks. 1 infantry soldier is probably not going to kill a competent lightning either. Yet I don't see you complaining about that.

Yet 1 Skygaurd can kill a ESF and 1 ESF with A2G rockets can kill a non-skygaurd lightning. Both are 1 man vehicles.

>You may not know this, but 1 ESF can't have A2G rockets and A2A rockets. It's impossible to perfectly counter both and flares have a long cool down.

I was under the assumption that you could have A2G rockets and a strong nose gun too. Are they limited to one?
Plus, a2g rockets can be easily used against Liberators and Galaxies to good effect.

>It's no different than tanks. 1 infantry soldier is probably not going to kill a competent lightning either. Yet I don't see you complaining about that.

You should hear me on voice. In all seriousness, the difference here is a lightning can't take out MBTs, groups of infantry, and air with impunity like ESFs can. Sure you can drive into a group of infantry and get a few kills, but you're going to die - not so much as an ESF, from my experience. I'm generally dead from a few rockets before I get a lock on, even with my shield up.

[Bocheezu]

I hate to dredge up PS1 as an example, but let's compare PS1 AA MAXs and PS2 Burster anyway.

PS1 AA MAXs --

VS Starfire: Lock-on missles that required you to maintain the lock for them to track. MAX had jumpjets and could jump a full rocket pod salvo. One clip (about 8 shots I think) was enough to kill a reaver.

NC (Falcon?): Lock-on missles that were fire-and-forget. MAX had a shield that you could activate to eat a salvo of rockets without dying (couldn't fire while shield was active). One clip was enough to kill a reaver.

TR Burster: Flak fire with no warning. Required you to aim, but countered by the ability to lockdown and significantly increase the firing rate. Very difficult to hit libs at flight ceiling, but reavers were not much trouble. One clip was enough to kill a reaver.

PS2 AA MAX:

Burster: Both arms required in order to kill a plane before it flies away to repair. Flak has small AoE and is like hitting the plane with a regular bullet. Fighters are many times more maneuverable than PS1 reavers, making flight paths unpredictable. The farther the plane is away, the more likely they will dodge in some unanticipated direction, meaning that hitting anything beyond about 150m is nothing but luck. Basically, hitting a regular fighter at 150m is like trying to hit a lib at flight ceiling in PS1.

In PS1, pilots couldn't even slow down without getting blown up, let alone hover. Pilots had to hide behind mountains and trees, and only pop up to quickly fire their rocket salvo before going back to hiding. Pilots had to plan their attack and come from odd or unexpected angles/directions to sneak up on AA and kill them.

In PS2, if no air AA is present, pilots often just hover out in the open without a care in the world. They do not hide behind trees or mountains. If a ground AA threat is noticed, they turn and head straight for it head-on and blow it up instead of dashing behind a mountain to escape. They do not plan any attacks and merely see target, shoot target. Any amount of sneakiness (for instance, the simple action of not coming in for a second strafing run the same direction that you left the first one) makes fighter able to at least kill whatever it was strafing before it dies, but often can still survive and easily repair/rearm at the nearest tower to continue to oppress anything on the ground.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Revanmug

Because your 1 man tank require teamwork to be use right? I don't think you'll get much pity for your MBTs considering air is the most efficient way of culling the almighty tank zerg.

I see people constantly complaining about dying to rocket but I can count on my finger the number of time it happen for me. I can't say the same against MBTs.

The best way to cull the tank zerg would be to require it to use teamwork. Not make one single player fight another single player where no one single player can kill the first single player, because somewhere it became unfair to kill a single player just because that player has wings.


It's not like those single airborne players got halo's somewhere along. :/


Mind, with everyone and their dog in the future having G2A missiles, 3 rockets to kill is okay. But till then it's going to be a bit of a mess.



And all that just because everyone has access to every basic unit in game...



We're not the ones with the vision that create balance issues...

[RobUK]

Originally Posted by Dragonskin

Yet 1 Skygaurd can kill a ESF and 1 ESF with A2G rockets can kill a non-skygaurd lightning. Both are 1 man vehicles.

Have you any idea how long it takes for 1 Skyguard to kill 1 ESF?

The Skyguard is hopeless at its one role. If AA is a deterrent then SOE need to stop with the ridiculous money-grab prices that they charge for AA MAX and Skyguard.

It's not like you can even upgrade the things to make them more potent. All you can do is buy childish skull masks for the MAX and make it look like a short stumpy giraffe. Oh, and you can get "Go Faster" stripes for your Lightning as well. For real world money of course. It's pathetic.

The cert prices and Station Cash prices are obnoxiously high for AA weapons. SOE needs to rewrite their descriptions for AA so that people know not to buy them. At the moment the whole thing is a complete rip-off to unsuspecting customers.

Who on earth would knowingly pay real money for a deterrent in a PvP game that is all about killing suff and gaining XP?

Drop the resource cost completely. Halve the timer and revisit the outrageous cert cost and make it more realistic for what it is.

[Figment]

The whole "deterent" argument is nonsense.


It is propagated by those people that feel entitled because they either invested some certs (who cares) or resources (who cares) and don't apply the same logic on themselves, since they perceive themselves as outright killing machines. Anything that might kill them must at most scare them off. Unless of course, that which kills them is the exact equivalent to themselves.


I have no problem with air having safeish zones at high altitude for dogfighting if at that range they can't effectively fight ground targets due to inaccurate projectile dispersion at that range.

But if they can kill something on the ground, they sure as hell should be taking a heavy risk of being fired upon and should not be able to afford any loitering, but use high speed strafing runs to attempt to hit something.

Rocket pods for instance would be fine with a smaller clip, slightly lower rate of fire and a dispersion where they're made to fire at large objects. They should not be accurate enough or have enough splash damage to hit 10 pixel size infantry with supreme ease, while nobody is to kill them in the process, just chase them off after doing so...

If it can kill tanks in one or one and a half volley of rocket pods, it's not very well balanced. If it can kill a moving, zig zagging Flash at full speed with even 20% accuracy, it's probably too accurate as it's then able to hit needles in haystacks, rather than being a weapon to target Sunderers and tanks with.


(And remember, I'm against solo MBTs, so don't give me the crap that MBTs are one player tanks - I know, I hate it).