AA max VS Sky guard! Why they must be changed.

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by psijaka

I do support your proposed changes in principle, snafus, but to say that they will "still leave AA OP as fuck" is a bit of an exaggeration, surely.

they would still rip aircraft apart, just at a lower range.

[planitsider]

The max is way to accurate.
its way stronger than any AA in the game.
And it can be placed everywhere.
The cost is the same as 1 c4 brick.
no way this is balanced good.

[Dodgy Commando]

Originally Posted by maradine

Still not getting my point. You can't nerf something ubiquitous and buff something rare by the same amount and get an overall equivalent state. Infantry AA is ubiquitous. Vehicle AA is not. You could make the argument that changing the roles in the manner described would make Infantry AA less ubiquitous and Vehicle AA more so, but that parity is impossible given the locations you can pull each from and their comparative costs. As long as vehicles are harder to deploy and more expensive to acquire, that's an intrinsic and irreconcilable difference.

Therefore, to do A) what you're asking while B) maintaining existing force parity, the SG (and otherwise vehicular) buff needs to be bigger than the comparative Burster (and otherwise infantry) nerf.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying everyone should understand what they're asking for.

Why do you need parity?

You're point would only be an issue if infantry was incapable of defending itself. However, with OP's proposed canges that would not be the case. Infantry-based AA would still maintain effectiveness in terms of defending itself, without getting out of hand as it can now (namely the much better range of Bursters).

Infantry-based AA would still be a valid means of defence, and thus would remain as ubiquitous as required by the current airspace situation at any given time.

Infantry-based AA will still be able to destroy aircraft quite well; that's the only parity that needs to be maintained (and it is maintained in OP's proposition).


My only concern with this change is the cert argument. It costs more at first glance to get a MAX to full AA capacity then a Skyguard. This may be the reason behind the devs' choice.

I don't care much for it personally, I would gladly accept this change as I find the current state a bit absurd. I have both Bursters on my MAX and a Skyguard, the latter of which is left to gather dust atm...

[maradine]

Originally Posted by Dodgy Commando

Why do you need parity?

For a very simple question. To wit: in this new world, can infantry defend itself from aircraft at all the ranges that aircraft of all types can damage it?

[Dodgy Commando]

Tenuous argument at best.

You can't snipe with Rocket Pods and the degree of accuracy required for primary weapons puts you in a vulnerable situation vs infantry-based AA anyway.

Perhaps vs Libs, but then I can simply turn the argument around and ask why this shouldn't be the case for the Skyguard?

[maradine]

It certainly can be the case for the Skyguard. I don't know why you think I'm against the role reversal in general. What I'm stating is that the shift will have to be bigger than just "nerf burster range, buff skyguard accuracy" if you don't want to go back to AirSide. I know some people would like that. That's fine - many don't.

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by SolLeks

they would still rip aircraft apart, just at a lower range.

That's fine by me. Pilots that hang around hover spamming rocket pods are fair game.

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by maradine

It certainly can be the case for the Skyguard. I don't know why you think I'm against the role reversal in general. What I'm stating is that the shift will have to be bigger than just "nerf burster range, buff skyguard accuracy" if you don't want to go back to AirSide. I know some people would like that. That's fine - many don't.

In case you don't know, things that do not render can not get hurt.

This means, If you are in a dalten lib and fire a shot at a target from longer then render range (you won't see the target, but bare with me), even if you 'hit' a loan infantry on the head, since that loan infantry does not render, it takes no damage.

If we make maxes only able to shoot to infantry render, then they will be able to shoot anything that can hurt infantry. same goes for skygaurds, If they can shoot to tank render, then they can hurt anything that can hurt them.

As it is right now, AA can hurt us when we can not hurt them. that is why changing the range would fix the situation.

[maradine]

Hopefully we'll have the chance to find out.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by psijaka

On Waterson I recently came across a party of EIGHT AA MAXes on top of a turret tower.

I thought I saw a name like yours on Waterson!

Originally Posted by SolLeks

In case you don't know, things that do not render can not get hurt.

This means, If you are in a dalten lib and fire a shot at a target from longer then render range (you won't see the target, but bare with me), even if you 'hit' a loan infantry on the head, since that loan infantry does not render, it takes no damage.

Yet we have people saying their vehicles are getting hit by unrendered shots all the time...

Clientside hit detection isn't the best defense for AA range reduction man...

[MrMak]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

I thought I saw a name like yours on Waterson!


Yet we have people saying their vehicles are getting hit by unrendered shots all the time...

Clientside hit detection isn't the best defense for AA range reduction man...

No. YOU cant hurt something that doesnt render for YOU. HOWEVER that thing can hysrt you if you render for it.

So an infantry guy 500m away from a tank can destroy it even though the guy in the tank doesnt see the infantry guy or his rockets but if the tank were to lad shots at the infantry guy's position it douldnt do shit.

[KesTro]

Originally Posted by MrMak

No. YOU cant hurt something that doesnt render for YOU. HOWEVER that thing can hysrt you if you render for it.

So an infantry guy 500m away from a tank can destroy it even though the guy in the tank doesnt see the infantry guy or his rockets but if the tank were to lad shots at the infantry guy's position it douldnt do shit.

Probably the best example of this would engineer AV turrets.

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

I thought I saw a name like yours on Waterson!


Yet we have people saying their vehicles are getting hit by unrendered shots all the time...

Clientside hit detection isn't the best defense for AA range reduction man...

Now I understand why you don't like our ideas, You have misconseptions about how the current system works. as the others and myself have said, if you render for a target that does not render for you, It can hurt you wile you can not hurt it.

[Dodgy Commando]

Originally Posted by maradine

It certainly can be the case for the Skyguard. I don't know why you think I'm against the role reversal in general. What I'm stating is that the shift will have to be bigger than just "nerf burster range, buff skyguard accuracy" if you don't want to go back to AirSide. I know some people would like that. That's fine - many don't.

I understand that you aren't against the change at all, no problems there.

I don't want you to take it personally either, its just my opinion vis a vis what you are saying. I hope I haven't come across as too aggressive.

I just don't think the changes would result in a return to Airside as I believe infantry would still be capable of defending itself, while pilots wouldn't face the frustration of being shot out of nowhere. I'm no big pilot myself, although I do fly a CAS Reaver; but I have no hidden agenda there. But I can understand the frustration in the current situation, plus I find that it results in the Skyguard being relegated as it clearly isn't a good choice when you sum up cost and ease of deployment/use compared to the AA MAX. This situation for me is nonsensical.

Whether other balancing issues need to be considered is beyond the scope of OP's proposition, although there is certainly discussion to be had.

[Tiberius]

I was on NC during the double XP weekend and SNAFU was getting like 3-5 kills per strafe. I was sitting there in my dual burster shooting him everytime he came in and I could never kill him. I don't know why he's complaining.