I stand corrected by the Harasser

[Baneblade]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

This is exactly what I mean with EVERY vehicle topic in this forum getting hijacked and ending up in whining about PS1 dedicated driver mechanics.

Because dedicated drivers is what makes the Harasser as good as it is?

Dedicated drivers have their use yes, but balancing Harassers should be about casual players that make up the major part of this game.

Casuals have fuck all to do with any balancing discussion. The entire concept of catering to 'casuals' is destructive. Mainly because there is no such thing as casuals. And inventing a classification of player to fill a nonexistent niche is only going to damage the game.

So, forget this casual player nonsense and make the game the way it should be made.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Dude, you seriously have no idea what you're talking about. I like this community, don't get me wrong or otherwise I wouldn't be here ( I even have a rather high respect for you), but I have seen quite a few people around me (I won't name them) getting put off by the sour, negative, PS1 obsessed mentality that seems to rear it's ugly head here from time to time, to a level that they stopped checking this forum altogether.

I kind of doubt you know what you are talking about, I was won over by the Crewed Tank argument in Planetside 2 LONG before I was even able to play the Original...

Hell, the reason I've became a Planetside 1 fanboy isn't because I think it did everything perfectly, but it did do a large number of things that WORKED that should have been carried over to the sequel!

Now Figment can get a bit overzealous when it comes to PS1 mechanics, but he is correct pointing out the Harrasser's true power lying in it's seperate Driver and Main Gunner.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Dude, you seriously have no idea what you're talking about. I like this community, don't get me wrong or otherwise I wouldn't be here ( I even have a rather high respect for you), but I have seen quite a few people around me (I won't name them) getting put off by the sour, negative, PS1 obsessed mentality that seems to rear it's ugly head here from time to time, to a level that they stopped checking this forum altogether.

Let's not go there because we both know, or should know, what caused those responses.

And the PS1 obsession is relatively low, but since there's a lot of topics to discuss the chances of hearing about it are high. The thing is, PS1 simply had a lot of good stuff to refer to. You can't expect people NOT to bring it up regularly especially when they're concerned with other things they never were concerned with in the previous game.

Back on topic: As for Harasser, there's no use discussing it any more imo. You already officially hijacked this topic into a "MBT's should have dedicated drivers" thread.

Stop focusing on it, one or two posts in that direction doesn't make it about it at all. But you can't deny that dedication in driver roles enhances the combat ability of a unit.

[KesTro]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

I kind of doubt you know what you are talking about, I was won over by the Crewed Tank argument in Planetside 2 LONG before I was even able to play the Original...

Hell, the reason I've became a Planetside 1 fanboy isn't because I think it did everything perfectly, but it did do a large number of things that WORKED that should have been carried over to the sequel!

Now Figment can get a bit overzealous when it comes to PS1 mechanics, but he is correct pointing out the Harrasser's true power lying in it's seperate Driver and Main Gunner.

You're right when you say Planetside did a lot of things right, however as much as people want it to be PS1 and PS2 =/= the same game.

Back on topic, Harassers are easily my favorite vehicle since they were put into the game, several members of our outfits had saved up the 10k certs to invest in 'em. That mass cert grind paid off in a matter of days, they're the liberators of the ground and I would like to see more dedicated driver vehicles

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by KesTro

You're right when you say Planetside did a lot of things right, however as much as people want it to be PS1 and PS2 =/= the same game.

Well yes, for one the Original Planetside was developed more as an MMORPG with some FPS Mechanics, while the sequel has it the other way around...

I'm certainly not a fan of having a wide breath of equipment locked behind a limited number of Certification Points, as it's rather irritating to be unable to break a siege because none of the 20 people playing your faction put Points towards tanks.

...Still I find it rather irksome that, despite having a lack of proper gunplay mechanics, PS1 Facilities still look like they'd make better Shooter Maps then their PS2 counterparts...

Originally Posted by KesTro

Back on topic, Harassers are easily my favorite vehicle since they were put into the game, several members of our outfits had saved up the 10k certs to invest in 'em. That mass cert grind paid off in a matter of days, they're the liberators of the ground and I would like to see more dedicated driver vehicles

Oh indeed, I've rarely HAD passengers and I still find the thing a blast to drive!

Flashes are too small to run people over and Sunderer are too slow, but put me in a Harasser and I'll go BOWLING FOR SMURFS!!!

[PredatorFour]

Originally Posted by Figment

How is it whining? It's simply an observation and solution suggestion that is repeatedly suggested because it's so obvious a solution to all the problems.

In fact, the one whining right now, is you. On this particular topic, as usual, I might add.



YOU are the one acting hostile. Not us.

My view too.

I was thinking though how cool it would be if you could downgrade your harrasser (or tank even)armour for more speed. I'm pretty sure they said this before beta but it hasn't been put in. So you could have a really squishy buggy thats lightning quick, or a heavy ass buggy thats slower. Would be cool to customize MORE. They were always talking of cust-om-iz-ashen and we defo need more of it.

This is where a cert point model would've been interesting for example.. so i want SOME blockade armour so i put 2 outta say 5 certs into that. Then i want the rest in flares so 3 outta 5 in flares. So you get multiple benefits but weaker benefits instead of currently one or the other.

[Effective]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Dedicated drivers have their use yes, but balancing Harassers should be about casual players that make up the major part of this game.

You should stop posting forever. Gameplay should never be balanced around what casual players want.

The reason that the harasser is strong is highlighted into 2 things, it's decently durable for a fast vehicle and it's increased mobility from (wait for it) a DRIVER who can focus on DRIVING (what a fucking shocker eh?).

[Belhade]

"Casual" player wants a Harasser? That's a Flash. You know you can put guns on those? It's like, if things were done properly, the Lightning would be the "casual" player's tank, where the MBT is a fully-crewed vehicle.

The argument "It's not Planetside 1" is bunk. You're using that justification to *not* use the best features of that game? Might as well not play Planetside at all. I'd never even heard of Planetside 1, yet I think that a fully-crewed MBT would be painfully obvious.

[Rolfski]

Originally Posted by Effective

You should stop posting forever. Gameplay should never be balanced around what casual players want.

The reason that the harasser is strong is highlighted into 2 things, it's decently durable for a fast vehicle and it's increased mobility from (wait for it) a DRIVER who can focus on DRIVING (what a fucking shocker eh?).

Originally Posted by Belhade

"Casual" player wants a Harasser? That's a Flash. You know you can put guns on those? It's like, if things were done properly, the Lightning would be the "casual" player's tank, where the MBT is a fully-crewed vehicle.

The argument "It's not Planetside 1" is bunk. You're using that justification to *not* use the best features of that game? Might as well not play Planetside at all. I'd never even heard of Planetside 1, yet I think that a fully-crewed MBT would be painfully obvious.

If casual players are constantly getting overpowered by hardcore players in dedicated driver vehicles than the last thing you should do is giving hardcore players even more power and casual players less by making MBT's mandatory two-seaters. It's completely ridiculous.
If dedicated driver vehicles are more powerful, that's fine but if you marginalize casual/lone wolf players merely to Lightnings, you really, really don't understand what this game is about.

How many times do I need to repeat? This is a different game with a different business model behind it: Great PS1 mechanics don't necessarily work in this game. PS1 = subscription = hardcore focused. PS2 = f2p = more casual focused. Deal with it. For f2p to be successful, casual players are super important. How blind can you be not realizing that?. Dedicated driver mechanics that favor hardcore players need to be countered with mechanics that give power to casual players as well. Kicking casual players out of their MBT's is absolutely the stupidest thing you can do, if anything dedicated driver should be optional.

If I can not convince you how important this whole Harasser balancing discussion is to casual players, than maybe this video will:

[Baneblade]

So what you are saying is... nerf the Liberator.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

How many times do I need to repeat? This is a different game with a different business model behind it: Great PS1 mechanics don't necessarily work in this game. PS1 = subscription = hardcore focused. PS2 = f2p = more casual focused. Deal with it. For f2p to be successful, casual players are super important. How blind can you be not realizing that?. Dedicated driver mechanics that favor hardcore players need to be countered with mechanics that give power to casual players as well. Kicking casual players out of their MBT's is absolutely the stupidest thing you can do, if anything dedicated driver should be optional.

Rolfski, see:

Originally Posted by Belhade

It's like, if things were done properly, the Lightning would be the "casual" player's tank, where the MBT is a fully-crewed vehicle.

...Because why should EFFECTIVE TEAM WORK, whether it be between two hard core players or two casual randoms, be punished for the sake of a single lone wolf getting a one man MBT?

Originally Posted by Belhade

I'd never even heard of Planetside 1, yet I think that a fully-crewed MBT would be painfully obvious.

Well that's the funny thing about your comment on the Lightning and the MBTs, because THAT'S HOW IT WAS IN THE ORIGINAL!!!

And you know what makes it even MORE ironic?
PS1 didn't have nearly the in-game VOIP as PS2 and has a currect active player base that can be measured in DOZENS, so nowadays if you do pull an MBT not only are you going to need to round up a random Gunner but you also have to communicate with him using Text chat and Macros!

[Wahooo]

Nerf team work!!!!!!

[Rolfski]

Admin, please close this threat. It was hijacked 3 pages ago by bitter PS1 fanboys, who refuse to take a fresh look on this game.

[AThreatToYou]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

How many times do I need to repeat? This is a different game with a different business model behind it: Great PS1 mechanics don't necessarily work in this game. PS1 = subscription = hardcore focused. PS2 = f2p = more casual focused. Deal with it. For f2p to be successful, casual players are super important. How blind can you be not realizing that?. Dedicated driver mechanics that favor hardcore players need to be countered with mechanics that give power to casual players as well. Kicking casual players out of their MBT's is absolutely the stupidest thing you can do, if anything dedicated driver should be optional.

The basis of your argument is logically sound. I agree with it.

But you're doing it wrong, period. PlanetSide 2 incorporates a variety of accommodating measures for players who have not yet invested a large amount of time in the game. The biggest barrier to this time-investment is knowing other competent players who play the game, and are willing to play and coordinate with the player. I'd call the players who don't really play with anyone else... casual players aka Lone Wolf. I am a casual player.

Why are crewed MBTs good for casual players? The number one reason why they are good for casual players is because they encourage casual players to become hardcore / networked players without abruptly forcing them. A networked player knows other players to coordinate with. It does this by asking them to find a partner to either gun or drive with them. Simple, right?

But how does this not block them? We simply already have the Lightning, ESF, and Flash. I don't use the Vanguard MBT very often; the Lightning is in no way a poor vehicle in comparison to MBTs. For a lone-wolf player, it is all they need. In addition to this, Casual players won't have anything to mind about the Lightning being unavailable, since it isn't tied to tech plant benefits and has a lower resource cost, in addition to being able to certify into a wide variety of one-man roles including anti-air. PlanetSide 2 already accommodates casual players in near-equal footing with "hardcore" players who crew Harassers. Introducing a crew requirement for the main gun of the MBTs wouldn't change this.

What are the benefits of crewed MBTs? I could say "A Better PlanetSide Experience" and about half of the player base would agree, but perhaps you wouldn't. That is not entirely what I am looking for, but certainly a part of it. The biggest part, however, has to do with SOE's business model. It encourages more players becoming involved with other players, which in turn might invite more players, or new players who are interested will invite more players on the basis of "hey pal, I need a gunner/driver". Players are content for all players in this MMOFPS... it helps the game. With more players also comes a higher chance of someone paying into SOE for station cash. More players will get involved in the community and start becoming a part of SOE's mantra of being responsive to the player-base.

It needs to be done.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Admin, please close this threat. It was hijacked 3 pages ago by bitter PS1 fanboys, who refuse to take a fresh look on this game.

Bullshit. And strawman.

1. It wasn't hijacked, YOU derailed the topic about it by starting to whine about it the moment it was brought up. And even after that we were talking about other things until YOU started whining about it being derailed again.

2. We've taken lots of fresh looks on everything. That doesn't mean WE HAVE TO LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE BETTER.

YOU are the one refusing to see that sometimes people JUST THINK SOMETHING ELSE THAT IS "not fresh" (lol) IS SIMPLY BETTER.


You are probably one of the people that would design or defend a Mach < 0.7 aircraft with jet propulsion instead of turboprops simply because it "looks more modern than rotorblades and the casual passengers would think so", even if it is inferior in fuel economy at low Mach numbers. And yes, a lot of aircraft were designed with that reasoning, especially between '45 and '80. That makes those aircraft pretty crappy products in comparison to others even if they sold reasonably because of managers thinking in marketing instead of efficiency and cost-efficiency and due to sheer lack of engineering knowledge.



The argument that casuals should not be overpowered by heavier tanks is incredible bull. Because the lighter units are now ALL overwhelmed by superheavy vehicles spammed in extreme numbers. THAT is a MUCH bigger problem than casuals being tasked to work together in a vehicle, which they do anyway.

In fact, considering casuals would face LESS enemy tanks if those other tanks were crewed, they would actually stand a better mathematical chance alone. But you don't think in numbers, you stupidly think in 1:1 unit scenarios, without realising you are defending and stimulating a 1:3 unit scenario! So sorry, but that's just an utter shit argument!

Casual SOLO players as well as casual TEAM players would actually BOTH benefit from crewed vehicles and BOTH suffer from strong solo units due to the increases in hitpoints and high firepower (including an increase of one hit kills on infantry) in the field.

Strong solo units increase spam. Strong team units (even if they are stronger than a single solo unit) decrease spam.

Effectiveness:
150% armour (team of 3) x 200% firepower (2 gunners) * 100% efficiency = 1.5 x 2 x 1 = 3

Effectiveness:
300% armour (team of 3 in own units) x 300% firepower (3 gunners) * 50% efficiency = 3 x 3 x 0.5 = 4.5

So even if you have units that are half as efficient as a peak efficient team unit in a unit that is 1.5x as heavy, the actual effectiveness is 2/3s of a group of three solo units. And the actual efficiency of a solo unit is more in the order of 70-80%, especially since the opposition is immobile and you can just sit and spam at oncoming and flanking vehicles, instead of having to try and dodge. So that would mean casual solists would face 2 to 3 times the problems against WEAKER soloable units than they would against STRONGER crewed units.

In fact, they would stand an even better chance against non-fully manned crewed units than against non-fully manned soloable units because it would be significantly weaker on a manpower/firepower ratio level. So again, the casual solist would benefit from crewed vehicles as opposition.

Yes, casuals solists can be a problem for themselves if the devs design stuff as you tell them to, by granting the heaviest units to the solists. You don't consider what this does to the numbers on the field and what this impact is on solists that try other types of units, like infantry. Those suffer from the greed for soloable MBTs that other solists have.