MAX Balnace Part 4: Everything AI

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by LoliLoveFart

Well this thread went about how I expected.
My PERSONAL opinion is that Shotguns on Maxes should be NS, they are just too hard to balance against HMGs, they will either be instant death (game launch) or a little worse but still damn powerful in cqc like they are now. Give the NC some HMGs and put the shotguns as NS, sure there will be tears (when isn't there) as the NC adjust.

To late for that Im afraid. To much work already done and to many people that earned shotguns to have them turn into something else. Changing stats to balance is fine and vital part of a games life. But changing weapon type is just a bad idea. That would have to been done in Beta, not post.

The idea has been said before and most agree on it.

1 NS MAX shotgun, 1 NS MAX HMG.
Or 2 shotguns, 1 for TR MAXes and 1 for VS MAXes, and 1 HMG for NC MAXes.

Id rather have the NS weapons. Less work for the devs, less time to wait for them, and a LOT less balance problems with 2 weapons instead of 3. If it was up to me Id make the NS MAX shotgun have stats in between Scattercannons/Hacksaws and give the NS HMG stats between an average of Heavy c/Onslaught and Quasar/Nebula.

Sloppy work up

NS Shotgun
Name- Bird Boy
Mag- 6
Ammo pool- 54
ROF- 194
Pellet Spread- 3.5

Reload
Short- 3.1
Long- 3.9

Damage
8m- 127
18m- 47

COF
Sitting-1.25, 1.75
Standing- 1.75, 2.25

-------------------

NS HMG
Name- White Lead
Mag- 55
Ammo Pool- 440
ROF- 413

Reload
Short- 2.2
Long- 2.8

Damage
10m- 143
60m- 120

COF
Sitting- 2, 1.47 (read below)
Standing- 2.5, 5



Fun fact! Tuns out according to the official wiki TR and VS HMGs (all of them) have a smaller COF while sitting and moving then sitting still.
http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/MAX_Anti-Infantry

Best be a typo or some hell of a bug.

[KesTro]

While any other MAX can kill another MAX in CQC without having to reload. The NC MAX -CAN'T- do that even with extended mags. I'm sorry but anyone who thinks things are balanced is just sad about shotguns, not the MAX.

[bpostal]

Originally Posted by Chewy

...
Fun fact! Tuns out according to the official wiki TR and VS HMGs (all of them) have a smaller COF while sitting and moving then sitting still.
http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/MAX_Anti-Infantry

Best be a typo or some hell of a bug.

That...can't be right. And if it is, it shouldn't be. That'd just be odd.

From what I've been reading in this thread, and hearing in game (There was a bit of a debate while we were sitting the rape room (teleporter) at Allatum today, the damage is "too much" in close combat and "not enough" at near/mid-range.
I suggested making slugs the default and making the shotgun's the cert but some of the NC weren't sure that would work.
Either way it sounds like the issue people had with the Vulcan, vehicle wise, until SOE smoothed the damage 'chart' out.
EDIT: Rereading the thread on the official forums, someone brought up the choke that the ScatMAX had in Planetside, that would probably be one of the more elegant solutions if one is needed.

[MrMak]

Originally Posted by KesTro

While any other MAX can kill another MAX in CQC without having to reload. The NC MAX -CAN'T- do that even with extended mags. I'm sorry but anyone who thinks things are balanced is just sad about shotguns, not the MAX.

Uh...wrong. Havent you ben paying attention to anything in this thread? Grinders without extended mags and any other of the scatterguns with exteanded mags kill maxes without relaoding at close range significantly faster than other faction weapons.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Chewy

To late for that Im afraid. To much work already done and to many people that earned shotguns to have them turn into something else. Changing stats to balance is fine and vital part of a games life. But changing weapon type is just a bad idea. That would have to been done in Beta, not post.

The idea has been said before and most agree on it.

My thoughts on the matter mirror yours. I would prefer to see them replaced with HMGs but it's sadly never going to happen because it's a F2P. It's not so much that people have earned their weapons via say certs, those can be refunded easily enough, it's that people have actually purchased their scatterguns with SC.

Originally Posted by bpostal

EDIT: Rereading the thread on the official forums, someone brought up the choke that the ScatMAX had in Planetside, that would probably be one of the more elegant solutions if one is needed.

Aye, that would be the firing modes I've been referring to as the only possible way, that I can see, for them to balance out scatterguns. Tweaking the current stats will never be enough on its own.

War Barney, you need to relax. A discussion like this should not infuriate anyone to the levels that you're showing. The data was collected under perfect conditions and is meant to show each weapon performs. How a Scattermax works ingame during day to day fights hasn't been taken into account since that would require one to try and add level design, player reaction times, average misses caused by player movement, cert options, different weapons going up against each other etc. into the equation. Want to know why Scattermaxes perform better in a Bio Lab than indicated by their stats? Level design. The level design allows for Scattermaxes to utilize their weapons to their fullest potential.

I still agree about Scattermaxes being the worst against other MAXes, simply because that's what SOE has been trying to balance them around for some reason. (The previous Scattermax's performance against other MAXes was just one of the two complaints regarding them, the biggest still being the instagib on infantry)
The Scattermax should be balanced around being overall more versatile.

[MrMak]

Uh the slugs are pretty much the long range mode on the PS1 Scatmax. Not to mention mode switching could get tricky with dual weapons.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by MrMak

Uh the slugs are pretty much the long range mode on the PS1 Scatmax. Not to mention mode switching could get tricky with dual weapons.

Not really since equipping slugs is a permanent choice, until you resupply/die, and not the same as switching between firing modes.
Modes would indeed have to be tied to both weapons that are capable of switching modes. Have two scatterguns? Both switch to the same firing mode. Have just one scattergun? Only that can switch firing mode.

I do see an issue with balancing out the different scatterguns when compared to each other.

[Sledgecrushr]

My nc max will way overkill the first two infanry I run into up close, and then I have a long reload. I spend most of my time in a fight when I use a max reloading. Its not fun at all.

[Rumblepit]

Originally Posted by War Barney

You see chewy, its people like them which make me think humanity is going to destroy itself. You give them maths, actual maths aquired from lots of testing and they say *well I'm going to take that with a grain of salt*

It just makes me smash my head on the table and scream WHAT!! this is maths! you can't take maths with a grain of salt its sodding maths!. You can take him just saying *I think NC MAX are underpowered* with no tests with a grain of salt but lots of testing with the maths you CANT TAKE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT ARE YOU INSANE.

These people are just impossible to reason with, I honestly don't know if they are retarded or just are terrified of the NC MAX being fixed. I'm hoping its the terrified one cos if its the retarded one then it scares me that people so dumb are allowed to own a pc let alone use one unsupervised.

You are best off sending your results directly to SOE cos letting this community look at them is about as helpful as showing the results to your pet dog, hell the dog would probably make more sensible remarks than some of these people are.

Yes I am a bit angry tonight after some more idiots in-game being insanely stupid as usual but my points still stand. You CANNOT try to say chewy is wrong until you do your own maths. If you want to do that well I played a VS MAX and killed about 20 people before I died so your MAX is OP! I don't need maths I have experience, same for TR MAX I played that and killed a TON of people before I died so its OP! again I don't need no maths I have the power of personal experience with no proof at all! As for NC MAX its hard to get even 1 kill! PERSONAL EXPERIENCE POWER ACTIVATE! as such what I say is true despite no evidence!.

Wow that IS fun! did you also know I have personal experience of using all Vs guns to kill everybody from 10k range in 1 shot so they all need a nerf, same for TR, but NC guns do 1 damage a hit from my personal experience so they all need a boost. BY THE POWER OF PERSONAL EXPERIENCE I AM CORRECT!! no proof needed I said its personal experience so I'm right!.

Yes I went a bit insane there but thats about as insane as you idiots are being by trying to say *well ye you did a load of testing and did the maths but I'm going to deny it anyway and say its the opposite based on no evidence of any proof at all except saying it*. So seriously shut the hell up and go do the maths or just shut the hell up.

i didnt pull these numbers , i didnt crunch these numbers, someone did it for me. this comes right from the devs.
All of these stats posted today at https://twitter.com/mhigby
Quote
Looks like the changes in GU11 brought the MAX vs MAX balance into line. TR MAXes underperforming slightly (~0.9 vs ~1.05 KDR for NC/VS)
Quote
VS MAXes still enjoying a higher average kills (3.2 vs 2.5 and 2.2 for NC/TR) but they were higher pre-ZOE as well, just a lot less used.
Quote
Overall, looks like NC MAXes are fairly competitive with VS across most metrics, TR MAXes will see some buffs soon.
Quote
Note: this is just a tiny piece of the picture we're looking at & TR MAXes are the most used, so they'd tend to have a lower K/D naturally.

i could come up with some numbers that would prove without a doubt that esf's are way to f ing overpowered, and these numbers would add up and make my case for me.but they would all be wrong. because the numbers would show esf's being overpowered, but it wouldnt show poor base design, and lack of cover. dose this mean that esf's are OP?
nah they are just fine the way they are, but the numbers would say otherwise. you get it kiddo? or should we allow you to continue to smash your head off the wall?

chewy your right on point with everything, testing was good, control was good, all your math is good,but they will never find balance threw those kind of numbers in a game like this.if this were the case then they would be forced to buff the crap out of the NC max, because on paper it looks like dog shat, but it still out preforms TR.
i wish i could tell you how to extract the numbers from the api, im sure it would save you lots of leg work.

i like the note at the end, "TR MAXes are the most used" lol its because we only get 0.9 kills per max

[maradine]

Hush, you're going to destroy humanity.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

i didnt pull these numbers , i didnt crunch these numbers, someone did it for me. this comes right from the devs.
All of these stats posted today at https://twitter.com/mhigby
Quote
Looks like the changes in GU11 brought the MAX vs MAX balance into line. TR MAXes underperforming slightly (~0.9 vs ~1.05 KDR for NC/VS)
Quote
VS MAXes still enjoying a higher average kills (3.2 vs 2.5 and 2.2 for NC/TR) but they were higher pre-ZOE as well, just a lot less used.
Quote
Overall, looks like NC MAXes are fairly competitive with VS across most metrics, TR MAXes will see some buffs soon.
Quote
Note: this is just a tiny piece of the picture we're looking at & TR MAXes are the most used, so they'd tend to have a lower K/D naturally.

Higby posted those on June 25th for anyone that wanted to hunt across his tweet history for them. let me try and give my thoughts on those tweets.

First of all you forgot to post some of them. I have no idea to post tweets here so Im just going to copy them.

The tweets below this one is him responding to this question
"@mhigby Did it ever came in mind that only the veteran VS players use maxes, unlike every NC and TR that just spam them and die instantly?"


@DMan577 yes, infact we know that to have been the case pre-ZOE, which is why it made sense they had an average KDR that is way higher.
@DMan577 however that's not the case anymore, they went from least used to most used MAX w/ the ZOE release.
@DMan577 now the TR MAX has overtaken the VS MAX again in terms of usage, but they're much closer than they were.
@DMan577 # of kills and K/D is still slightly disproportionate to NC/VS even when factoring in their increased use w/ lower level player"

My take on this-
TR MAXes are pulled the most pre-GU11 and VS MAXes the least. As well as only vet players with real game time being the ones to use VS MAXes explaining their high K/D. No word on NC MAXes being pulled or level of BRs using them. Safe to assume in the middle of TR and VS MAXes Id think.

Post-GU11 VS MAXes had a lot of low level players start pulling MAXes and that made them the most used MAX for a short while then TR MAXes reclaimed that title but both are close to each other. Thus making NC MAXes the least pulled of the 3 if I read that right.

Now the K/D numbers for MAX v MAX. We have 2 of them for MAX v MAX. TR/NC and TR/VS but not for NC/TR, NC/VS, VS/TR, or VS/NC. 4 out of 6 is missing but 2 of those 4 can be assumed. Flip the 2 given for TR and you should have the K/D for NC/TR 1.1 and VS/TR .95 but no word on NC/VS or VS/NC.

I want to give opinions on those but can't from lack of anything else to go on such as pull rates for BR and pull amounts. Though I wouldn't call a .2 or .1 gap something to worry about unless we are not told something vital.

Then we have over all K/D. This is for any kills the MAX gets over an average life. VS MAXes 3.2, NC MAXes 2.5, and TR MAXes 2.2. NC and TR MAXes look to farm about as much as the other when remembering that there are more TR MAXes than NC MAXes but VS MAXes are clearing house with being either the most pulled MAX or equal to it. And Higby said that VS MAXes had a HIGHER over all K/D before GU11.

VS MAXes enjoy a K/D higher than NC MAXes and we know the general opinions on them don't we? How long as this been the case? GU6 or even possibly back to launch? We don't know.



That little bit of data may have came from Higby himself but it is so small that you can't hardly use it. He tells us parts of 2 bits of data and hints at others but never gives a picture on anything. The devs have everything they need, we have only what we see and eyes see what they want. That data brings more questions than what it tells.

We need someone that is able to data mine again. When we lost Cupboy to forum warriors is was a big blow. There is no way to learn anything without having the data ready for anyone to look at.

[Rumblepit]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Higby posted those on June 25th for anyone that wanted to hunt across his tweet history for them. let me try and give my thoughts on those tweets.

First of all you forgot to post some of them. I have no idea to post tweets here so Im just going to copy them.

The tweets below this one is him responding to this question
"@mhigby Did it ever came in mind that only the veteran VS players use maxes, unlike every NC and TR that just spam them and die instantly?"


@DMan577 yes, infact we know that to have been the case pre-ZOE, which is why it made sense they had an average KDR that is way higher.
@DMan577 however that's not the case anymore, they went from least used to most used MAX w/ the ZOE release.
@DMan577 now the TR MAX has overtaken the VS MAX again in terms of usage, but they're much closer than they were.
@DMan577 # of kills and K/D is still slightly disproportionate to NC/VS even when factoring in their increased use w/ lower level player"

My take on this-
TR MAXes are pulled the most pre-GU11 and VS MAXes the least. As well as only vet players with real game time being the ones to use VS MAXes explaining their high K/D. No word on NC MAXes being pulled or level of BRs using them. Safe to assume in the middle of TR and VS MAXes Id think.

Post-GU11 VS MAXes had a lot of low level players start pulling MAXes and that made them the most used MAX for a short while then TR MAXes reclaimed that title but both are close to each other. Thus making NC MAXes the least pulled of the 3 if I read that right.

Now the K/D numbers for MAX v MAX. We have 2 of them for MAX v MAX. TR/NC and TR/VS but not for NC/TR, NC/VS, VS/TR, or VS/NC. 4 out of 6 is missing but 2 of those 4 can be assumed. Flip the 2 given for TR and you should have the K/D for NC/TR 1.1 and VS/TR .95 but no word on NC/VS or VS/NC.

I want to give opinions on those but can't from lack of anything else to go on such as pull rates for BR and pull amounts. Though I wouldn't call a .2 or .1 gap something to worry about unless we are not told something vital.

Then we have over all K/D. This is for any kills the MAX gets over an average life. VS MAXes 3.2, NC MAXes 2.5, and TR MAXes 2.2. NC and TR MAXes look to farm about as much as the other when remembering that there are more TR MAXes than NC MAXes but VS MAXes are clearing house with being either the most pulled MAX or equal to it. And Higby said that VS MAXes had a HIGHER over all K/D before GU11.

VS MAXes enjoy a K/D higher than NC MAXes and we know the general opinions on them don't we? How long as this been the case? GU6 or even possibly back to launch? We don't know.



That little bit of data may have came from Higby himself but it is so small that you can't hardly use it. He tells us parts of 2 bits of data and hints at others but never gives a picture on anything. The devs have everything they need, we have only what we see and eyes see what they want. That data brings more questions than what it tells.

We need someone that is able to data mine again. When we lost Cupboy to forum warriors is was a big blow. There is no way to learn anything without having the data ready for anyone to look at.

this little bit of data dose leave us with more questions than answers, but this is the type of data they use to balance the game, that was my point. now i know there is more to this data ,but we were only allowed a peak. now based of these numbers it dosnt look to bad, but this isnt all the numbers because this really wouldnt justifie a buff, so there is alot more to it then we know. that being said, try out the tr max in live combat and tell me its on par with the nc and vs.

its a joke.... tr and nc run away from zoey maxes , vs and tr run away from nc maxes. nc and vs fight over who gets to kill the tr maxes.this is how you can tell there is a issue.

we are big red slow piles of certs,that sometimes lockdown to the ground .

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

this little bit of data dose leave us with more questions than answers, but this is the type of data they use to balance the game, that was my point. now i know there is more to this data ,but we were only allowed a peak. now based of these numbers it dosnt look to bad, but this isnt all the numbers because this really wouldnt justifie a buff, so there is alot more to it then we know. that being said, try out the tr max in live combat and tell me its on par with the nc and vs.

its a joke.... tr and nc run away from zoey maxes , vs and tr run away from nc maxes. nc and vs fight over who gets to kill the tr maxes.this is how you can tell there is a issue.

we are big red slow piles of certs,that sometimes lockdown to the ground .

Do you know the amount of shit the devs would get if they said "Yup, the game is kinda in a fucked way right now and we are brain storming ideas"? Not only would they get their asses handed to them from higher ups but the gaming community would go nuts and player bases would quit from a thing like that. You do not say those kinds of things as a game dev.

Also any MAX, no matter the faction, gets shot to shit. Why the fix on ZOE? A VS MAX doesn't need that to be a killer. It helps them do that job better but it is in no way needed. My shield only lets me be a target. Though that is a good thing when I can get a MBT to keep an eye on me to give another time for a C4 run I'll say.

You want me to be a TR MAX, how about you try and be a NC MAX? Would that even change anyone's opinion on this? If I went and made a video of me playing as a TR MAX would that do a damned thing? It certainly wouldn't change my opinion on weapon types and wouldn't change the math Iv done.

In truth I don't have the time to farm for certs on an alt and don't have the cash to spend $7-$14 on weapons for a faction I don't play. If I did what you ask it would just be a BR 1 with a shit 1 AI and 1 AV weapon stock MAX. It wouldn't prove a thing.

[Wahooo]

One thought on the numbers thing. Even though only a small fraction of most online game players visit the forums for those games; the general sentiment and trends on those forums make their way through the community. The minute you get "OMG OP" threads a very large number of players jump on that bandwagon. Same as "OMG WORTHLESS".
The devs know this, i'm sure they see these trends. ZOE comes out, everyone screams OP and tons of folks who'd barely touched one before grabs it.

Other things go into it as well, like TR's big selling point high ROF, lots of bullets just epitomized by the max, so a lot of new players that already gravitated to TR gravitate to the max, which would explain why there are so many new players on them.

Still not sure what to say about all this really. I've played a bit of NC max last couple days and I do think that extended mags are much more useful, and damn near needed, than they are on the other two factions. However they also help the NC more significantly. I know tonight if I had had extended mags I would have killed the last guy that killed me, and may still be playing than typing this.
I also think slugs are way underutilized. It isn't hard to run back to a term and change out slugs or shot, especially for me when on NC I'm unsquadded so I find myself running back to spawns for repairs because I don't know where an engie is. The kills I got tonight were not quite 50/50 shot and slugs, but a good number were slugs. Now, once I get 1000 certs I will have to make a choice do I put extended mags on the guns I have or go to the walmart and get some SC to buy hacksaws or mattocks. I still like hacksaws with slugs based on VR testing... would be nice to be able to compare the two in game... which is a BIG thing about this whole thread right? After testing in VR I would equip hacksaws... based on popular opinion mattocks... based on this thread Grinders. Variables.

[Frotang]

Here is my ideas on different cert options for NC MAX.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/c...nt_view_on_it/
I too agree that the NC MAX weapon certs are far more useful than the TR and VS. And that really isn't fair for any of the three factions which I why I proposed giving extended mags by default (maybe minus 1-2 rounds) and gave ideas for a different less useful 500 cert ability.

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