Planetside 2 Needs Prone

[Khrusky]

Originally Posted by Cuross

But is no one going to offer me any counterpoints to my argument? I was hoping that I could see some brilliance that didn't revolve around camping or "in this game this and that game that", lol.

Well, I could play Devil's Advocate but I essentially agree with you so I'm not sure I really want to.

[Cuross]

Originally Posted by fishirboy

this is why we need prone only the first min but it is a good example

Dot dot dot. Seriously? We need prone because another game has prone? No explanation, no reasons, no discussion or healthy debate? This is why I want people to read and answer my reply a couple pages back. To try to avoid this nonsense...

[Cuross]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

All I can say about that is that even if you don't think of camping as a playstyle, some of the people here do. I say this because I've seen "camping" and "slow gameplay"(which does seem more descriptive of a playstyle than "camping") grouped in the same sentence. I kind of get the feeling people want the game to be a constant back and forth with bases falling quickly and the front line moving back and forth constantly with no long battles. I rather thought that should be left up to skills and strategies than artificial limitations. Because, as I said before, prone is just a proxy argument for camping/slow gameplay. When lack of prone doesn't achieve the desired effect on game pace, what's next? Return of killcam? That's why a line in the sand is being drawn on prone, at least for me, not just on the merits of prone itself.

Not a brilliant argument by any means, but it's all I have for you

Oh, I completely agree that camping is a playstyle, one that I have perfected over time in many different games. But I'm trying to discuss prone. The thing I'm trying to get the discussion focused on is getting rid of the proxy argument so that we can get focused on the mechanic that we're trying to discuss. We're never going to get rid of camping whether we can prone or not, so I don't know why people are still arguing about that particular effect. Once again, if everyone is camping, bases don't get captured, you can't pull vehicles, you can't customize your stuff, camping is bad. That's the argument people should have for all things related to camping in my opinion haha.

---Edit:
It was brilliant enough because it stayed mostly focused on the true goal of my argument Ty ^^

[Stew]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

All I can say about that is that even if you don't think of camping as a playstyle, some of the people here do. I say this because I've seen "camping" and "slow gameplay"(which does seem more descriptive of a playstyle than "camping") grouped in the same sentence. I kind of get the feeling people want the game to be a constant back and forth with bases falling quickly and the front line moving back and forth constantly with no long battles. I rather thought that should be left up to skills and strategies than artificial limitations. Because, as I said before, prone is just a proxy argument for camping/slow gameplay. When lack of prone doesn't achieve the desired effect on game pace, what's next? Return of killcam? That's why a line in the sand is being drawn on prone, at least for me, not just on the merits of prone itself.

Not a brilliant argument by any means, but it's all I have for you

i find whats you said perfectly true people has to understand eachothers instead of trying to insult eachother or ignore !

I agree with this all these post ive seen so far for people agains prone are mostly based on the (( camping arguments )) wich as u said and like ive sasid its a Playstyle and no game mechanics will change this

camping is everywhere in everygames like run and gun should we turn down the speed so run and gunner will be not possible should we remoove all rooftop to not have vetical combat ? should we remoove cloak because some people are going to say cloakers = invisible campers ?

this could go on and on

but your better to explain thing than me lol

[Khrusky]

Originally Posted by mirwalk

Tension is ok, but I feel you can get enough of that will some regular cover, not needing prone.

I may be blowing it out of proportion due to the amount of MAXs and vehicles that are usually around.

Usually I defeat campers and prone people with a few grenades, but with me having to use resources for them. I am less inclined to spam them to clear areas. I do this since I can't really see through a window or doorway and see a prone person.

Or like those moments in BF3 that someone is prone and just laying down a constant stream of fire into a doorway. Makes a very hard target. That may be defused by MAXes

There's a difference between the tensions provided by the binary state of being able to get to real cover or not, and on the other hand, finding yourself under fire from someone at a distance where they're inaccurate, throwing yourself to the ground and crawling towards the real cover.

If it's anything like PS1 then there'll be too many people camping a doorway for all of them to fit on the floor; at least a few will be forced to stand!
I was a dedicated galaxy pilot in PS1 so I don't remember precisely the favoured tactics for breaking sieges, but yes MAXs were a big part of that, as well as the balance between them and HAs as it was a rock-paper-scissors of AV HA beats MAX beats AI HA beats AV HA. Attacking from multiple entrance points and making sure to have plenty of AMSs was the main thing.

Grenades will probably be cheap. That is something that they would be very likely to change if we rabbled about it.

[fishirboy]

Originally Posted by Cuross

Dot dot dot. Seriously? We need prone because another game has prone? No explanation, no reasons, no discussion or healthy debate? This is why I want people to read and answer my reply a couple pages back. To try to avoid this nonsense...

i have had plenty of reason read all the post man come on haha

[mynameismud]

Saying prone negatively effects game flow=/=saying prone encourages camping.

Whether people are moving towards the action, away from the action, or not moving at all. Adding in prone will greatly affect game flow and it is my opinion that it will affect it badly.

[Khrusky]

Originally Posted by Cuross

Oh, I completely agree that camping is a playstyle, one that I have perfected over time in many different games. But I'm trying to discuss prone. The thing I'm trying to get the discussion focused on is getting rid of the proxy argument so that we can get focused on the mechanic that we're trying to discuss. We're never going to get rid of camping whether we can prone or not, so I don't know why people are still arguing about that particular effect. Once again, if everyone is camping, bases don't get captured, you can't pull vehicles, you can't customize your stuff, camping is bad. That's the argument people should have for all things related to camping in my opinion haha.

---Edit:
It was brilliant enough because it stayed mostly focused on the true goal of my argument Ty ^^

Camping is not always bad. If you're playing a recon class properly (which I admit rarely happens) then overwatch is an important part of your role. Likewise if you're trying to defend a base then picking where to make your stand and digging in is the sole correct tactic.

However, I agree that this discussion should be about prone alone, rather than camping, but there don't seem to be many people wishing to argue against prone that can extricate the two things from each other.

[Cuross]

Originally Posted by fishirboy

i have had plenty of reason read all the post man come on haha

Read a good enough amount of your posts just now, still turns out that the argument of cover is the biggest issue you're addressing which I also addressed in mine. Aside from that, you're reasoning for prone is basically just to have the option, which I respect, but I still find the mechanic unnecessary for PS2, again, for the reasons which I stated.

[Khrusky]

Originally Posted by mynameismud

Saying prone negatively effects game flow=/=saying prone encourages camping.

Whether people are moving towards the action, away from the action, or not moving at all. Adding in prone will greatly affect game flow and it is my opinion that it will affect it badly.

Can you please say precisely what you mean? Your current statement doesn't pin down exactly what your issue with prone is.

[basti]

Lets make a list here. You pro prone folks have 24 hours to give proper arguments against the points made on the list. go!


1. Cloakers and PRone. Imagine a Infiltrator going up to a good spot, proning and cloaking. He sits there cloaked, shoots, and cloaks again. There is literally nothing you can do against him, as he got a extremly low profile.

2. Medics/engis and Prone. They simply chill behind, absolutly save from direct fire, and heal the guys up front.

3. Light assault and Prone: Would completly deny them the use of jumpjets, making the whole thing a rather nasty tradeoff. Mobolity is key for them, making prone absolutly useless for Light assault.

4. Defending and prone: Have fun trying to break a line of people just proning everywhere. Its almost impssible.

5. The zerg and prone: In planetside, heck, no, in EVERY game you have the problem that people are afraid of dying. Instead of Rushing, they just chill and wait around the corner. With prone, they have even less reason to move, as they have a smaller chance of killing a dude if they hop around the corner due to low profile, have more enemys shooting at them as prone allows 2 people behind one another to fire at you, and on top of that even gives a damn good reason not to move at all in the first place. The zerg would be proning EVERYWHERE, making Infantary engagments the most boring expirience ever.




Try to give arguments against these. I know you wont...

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by mynameismud

Saying prone negatively effects game flow=/=saying prone encourages camping.

Whether people are moving towards the action, away from the action, or not moving at all. Adding in prone will greatly affect game flow and it is my opinion that it will affect it badly.

Hmmmm....if we can separate camping out of it I'd be interested to see exactly what you have in mind.

[mynameismud]

Originally Posted by Khrusky

Can you please say precisely what you mean? Your current statement doesn't pin down exactly what your issue with prone is.

When people lie down for any reason it will affect pace of the game for those who use it or not. This is undeniable.

What is in question is whether you think it will be good or bad. Personally I think bad.

I think it will drastically ruin flow.

[maradine]

This thread went all night. I am impressed.

I agree that adding prone will affect the game flow. I disagree that it will affect it negatively. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I think it will provide a stark contrast for the teams that want to get in there and wreck shit.

Finally I saw a number of other people point these out, but I'd like to collect them and emphasize:

1. Implementing prone does not have not mean implementing instaprone, diving, and their variants.
2. The proclivity to camp is othorgonal to the existance of or non-existance of a prone state.
3. This really is an argument over PS2's FPS identity. What is it? An objective-based FPS? A tactical shooter? A run-and-gun but with bigger maps? What do you want us to be when we're grown up?

[fishirboy]

Originally Posted by basti

Lets make a list here. You pro prone folks have 24 hours to give proper arguments against the points made on the list. go!


1. Cloakers and PRone. Imagine a Infiltrator going up to a good spot, proning and cloaking. He sits there cloaked, shoots, and cloaks again. There is literally nothing you can do against him, as he got a extremly low profile.

2. Medics/engis and Prone. They simply chill behind, absolutly save from direct fire, and heal the guys up front.

3. Light assault and Prone: Would completly deny them the use of jumpjets, making the whole thing a rather nasty tradeoff. Mobolity is key for them, making prone absolutly useless for Light assault.

4. Defending and prone: Have fun trying to break a line of people just proning everywhere. Its almost impssible.

5. The zerg and prone: In planetside, heck, no, in EVERY game you have the problem that people are afraid of dying. Instead of Rushing, they just chill and wait around the corner. With prone, they have even less reason to move, as they have a smaller chance of killing a dude if they hop around the corner due to low profile, have more enemys shooting at them as prone allows 2 people behind one another to fire at you, and on top of that even gives a damn good reason not to move at all in the first place. The zerg would be proning EVERYWHERE, making Infantary engagments the most boring expirience ever.




Try to give arguments against these. I know you wont...

easy way to fix it is by BALENCE

No cloak when in prone,

use a fliping grenade, it takes long efnofe for him to revive just kill him, BF3 does not have that problem

Not really they can stand up or never use it its an option to have a jet pack

Yous your flipping grenade and yes that is the whole point of prone hared to kill go figure why we want it, go around, use a meck. or even better your mind!

Yes and no, people still hide behind corners rather if its on the ground or crouching, in BF3 most people don't just sit there on there stomachs most are smart and go around and attack from another entrance, the guy can only guard 1 door and guess what! grenade!