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View Poll Results: Do you want 3rd person on ground vehicles?
Yes, full 3rd person on ground vehicles please, situational awareness is key in driving 76 43.93%
Yes, but like in World of Tanks, only show those units that have actually been spotted 16 9.25%
Maybe, but under very specific conditions: [...] 11 6.36%
I don't really care either way 16 9.25%
No 3rd person at all: remove it from aircraft also, otherwise it's an unfair advantage. 28 16.18%
No 3rd person for GV: I'll gladly get run over by/collide with friendlies and stuck on terrain 23 13.29%
Other 3 1.73%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-05-21, 10:14 AM   [Ignore Me] #61
Figment
Lieutenant General
 
Re: Ground vehicle driving


This is one damn good reason to split up the roles btw: tank commander with 3rd person and driver. Gunners with first person and having to coordinate with the driver. Teamwork, balanced, skill and communication required.

Even then though, the gunner can get carsick from terrain bumps while driving sideways, view bouncing and rotating.


Honestly though, the ones who want nerfs should first say why. So far, they seem to just want tunnelvision for all, which IMO is going to turn people off.

Last edited by Figment; 2012-05-21 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 2012-05-21, 10:24 AM   [Ignore Me] #62
IMMentat
Contributor
First Sergeant
 
Re: Ground vehicle driving


#60 Kipper
I say 'yes' to 3PV in general, because it looks cool, helps with driving, and is fun.

But I say 'no' to 3PV when it can be used to see around corners, over terrain or behind at all times, or generally places you shouldn't be allowed to see from where you are.

If a way can be found to remove the problems it causes, then great - go for it.... but I can't think of one other than having the view so locked down that it probably wouldn't be any different from a locked cockpit view.
This.

#47
Here's why:

It's needed to maneuver around obstacles, especially at high speeds.
The Mag needs 3rdPV if it's going to have any success at strafing or driving in reverse.
Driving purely in 1stPV over uneven terrain, while moving fast or for long periods can cause eye strain and headaches/nausea for some players. 3rdPV can alleviate that.
It's potential for wallhumping abuse is next to nothing since vehicles are huge, loud, and always show on the minimap so you should always know where they are.
It's incredibly FUN to use. And having FUN is why we're all here, right?
It can be used as a balancing factor for the smaller, faster vehicles (i.e. ATV, Lightning) by giving their 3rdPV camera a view that's slightly farther out
It'll probably be needed for ATV's to simply keep control of the vehicle while move at top speed.

And yes, I believe it should point along the turret, not the front of the vehicle, due to the above-mentioned disorientation that switching to a topdown view could cause.
This and my previous comments (#54 mainly) pretty much cover my feelings, i think i'll chime out of this topic until someone says something dumb.

speaking of.
For those of you who want 3PV, how do you manage to drive your own cars around in real life without crashing every day?
Easy, cars are built for roads and pedestrians are commanded not to run randomly across or along said roads and neither driver nor pedestrian are currently distracted by gunfire, aircraft and the need to shoot people in the midst of a hectic warzone.
In RL you get punished in an impactful way for injuring/damaging anothers property/person (plus the laws that protect both drivers and passengers), in-game you get rewarded or glared at while squishy entities run around thinking they own (or are magically protected by) every patch of land underfoot.

Vehicles have weight and momentum, troops don't have much/any, but when mashed together in the same area, troopers go where they please and drivers can't/don't often make it obvious where they intend to drive.

Figment
This is one damn good reason to split up the roles btw: tank commander with 3rd person and driver. Gunners with first person and having to coordinate with the driver. Teamwork, balanced, skill and communication required.
As a mag driver I always had a gun, I often had to not shoot to allow my various gunners and the tanks survivability to get the prioroty in a fight.
I would welcome an option later to allow the gunner to have the big-gun, but agree with the devs that 1 person should be able to make any vehicle more than a roadblock. (Their sentiments my words, i hope)

Last edited by IMMentat; 2012-05-21 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 2012-05-21, 11:00 AM   [Ignore Me] #63
Figment
Lieutenant General
 
Re: Ground vehicle driving


I'll start defining the use requirements here. You can define the problem as you see it yourself in a similar or your own matter.

DRIVER
The things a DRIVER needs to do (main jobs and sub jobs):
  • Keep vehicle safe
    • Plan route
      • Route to battlefield (approach and entry)
      • Route on battlefield (combat)
      • Route from battlefield (escape and exit)
    • Evade enemy fire, friendlies and obstacles
  • Control speed
  • Control direction
  • Create appropriate firing angles for gunners

The information a DRIVER needs to do this:
  • Terrain layout
    • Obstacles (trees, units, rocks, ravines, walls, etc)
    • Relevant distances
    • Terrain gradient
    • Potential cover
  • Enemy locations
    • Angle
    • Height
    • Distance
  • Angles of own guns

The TANK COMMANDER must determine what the tankcrew should prioritise and do:
  • Which enemy is attacking (Can it be ignored? Must its fire be evaded?)
  • Which enemy is being attacked (what are the gunners doing)
  • Which enemy should be attacked (priority)

The TANK COMMANDER needs:
  • Enemy health status
  • Enemy locations
    • Angle
    • Height
    • Distance
  • Potential cover

The two roles pretty much overlap.

The GUNNER must:
  • Prioritise enemy
    • Determine unit strength and TTK
  • Aim for enemy('s weakspots)
    • Control the turret (yaw angle)
    • Control the barrel (pitch angle)
      • Determine distance to enemy (targeting/leading)
      • Determine height with respect to enemy (targeting/leading)
      • Determine speed of enemy (leading/leading)
      • Compensate for terrain (current and future angles, bumps in the road, etc)
    • Control cone of fire
      • Concentrate on keeping aim steady
  • Determine appropriate ammo
  • Reload

The view direction of the gunner can and will be up to 180 degrees to the driving direction, which means the two are mutualy exclusive. Because of the gunner role, you very often will see the vehicle come to a dead stop right before firing. This makes gameplay less dynamic and the tanks (in an incredibly volatile environment) very easy targets as they would need to accelerate to top speed time and again. This would significantly hinder the experience of tank driving. The Lightning in PS1 was a good example of this. It could be fun yes, but hilariously bad as well and especially if a unit dies fast (which so far we've seen in PS2 is the case due to wanting to up the speed of gameplay), standing still is not exactly something you wish to enforce. In fact, players will be forced to make the logistical path to the vehicle term more often as their tanks would blow up continuously.

That won't make them enjoy the game itself more, that just frustrates and slows down gameplay and would miss the point entirely.

The GUNNER role is IMO far too preoccupied with his own roles which barely overlap with the DRIVER's role. A first person view does not allow the gunner to orientate himself well as the turret's rotation speed would severely restrict their situational awareness capacity.

Which is actually why a tank has the Commander's Cupola on top of the turret, which provides a 360 view. And why even more often a commander (unless in danger), sticks out of the tank. You need to know what's going on before you can make a decision!




The tunnel (gunbarrel) vision proposed by those that want to remove third person would throw tank combat in PS2 back to the Super NES Battle Tank period. In fact, views would not have been so restricted since WWI!

Would you for instance want to attract players who have played World of Tanks, then you would immediately alienate them as they'd perceive the tank combat as a significantly sub-par and underdeveloped element of the game. THAT is a major problem. Perhaps not for infantry, but ffs, infantry gets a jetpack and C4 to instantly blow up medium battle tanks. How gimped do you want tanks to be? And how is gimped fun?



If you want to make gameplay more even for infantry, how about instead of nerfing ground vehicles (who are handicapped already in comparison to aircraft) and keep them from being played properly, you create appropriate terrain with plentiful actual cover for infantry? How about you create areas in which driving and flying is very hard due to the obstacles present?

The terrain we've seen in Alpha is very open. Even the base "interior" is open because almost every room we've seen is in direct connection to the outside. I don't think that aside from the walls, it's a very infantry friendly layout. Perhaps infantry should focus on cover and ambush friendly environments, rather than reducing the fun you can have with other units to compensate for whatever.
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Old 2012-05-21, 11:04 AM   [Ignore Me] #64
Figment
Lieutenant General
 
Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by IMMentat View Post
As a mag driver I always had a gun, I often had to not shoot to allow my various gunners and the tanks survivability to get the prioroty in a fight.
I would welcome an option later to allow the gunner to have the big-gun, but agree with the devs that 1 person should be able to make any vehicle more than a roadblock. (Their sentiments my words, i hope)
I don't quite get why you first say you could not perform your role and then demand to have the main gun.

The two roles simply don't match well. :/


Especially now that the Magrider's MAIN GUN (your previous Magrider's gun was a secondary gun!) cannot be used as often since you will STILL have to consider your survivability.

As a tank destroyer, which is what the Magrider has become, you have a completely different way of playing that is more focused on defense. ambush, sniping and brawling avoidance. It does not make the Magrider more effective to give the gunnerposition to the driver. Quite the contrary. It makes you perform worse and tbh you'll find that as you perform worse, you'll dislike the role more.

I bet people will blame the Magrider itself and want buffs, rather than realising the design is flawed for a main battle tank having to compete with other main battle tanks. That's my expectation anyway.
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Old 2012-05-21, 11:07 AM   [Ignore Me] #65
Figment
Lieutenant General
 
Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by Rozonus View Post
For those of you who want 3PV, how do you manage to drive your own cars around in real life without crashing every day?
In addition to what the others said, I'm not to be distracted too much by the other occupants of the car, like having to look sideways or backwards constantly without being allowed to look forward at the same time (what mirrors are for and why you quickly glance sideways and turn your neck rather than the superstructure of your car) BECAUSE I WOULD IMMEDIATELY RISK CRASHING THE CAR IF I WOULD NOT PAY ATTENTION TO THE ROAD AND OTHER PEOPLE ON THE ROAD (travelling in all sorts of directions).



So, my counter-question: how are you going to gun and drive and NOT hit objects?


EDIT: as a thought experiment, imagine you are driving on the highway and you have to keep a stick in your right hand pointed at a far away object on the horizon to your right for at least 20-30 seconds and have to keep it exactly on it constantly. Just think what could happen in that time span with and on the road ahead of you, what could happen with respect to keeping your lane (how accurate would you be, would you drift out of it, etc?) and then consider you're not driving a 0.5 ton Smart, but a 35 ton tank.

Last edited by Figment; 2012-05-21 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 2012-05-21, 11:08 AM   [Ignore Me] #66
Sledgecrushr
Colonel
 
Re: Ground vehicle driving


My vote is in favor of the secondary gunner also being the driver and being considered the tank commander.
Had to throw an edit in here, the secondary gunner imho should not have a 3rd person pov but instead should have a wide angle (180 degrees maybe) view that tracks quickly with the secondary gun.

Last edited by Sledgecrushr; 2012-05-21 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 2012-05-21, 11:14 AM   [Ignore Me] #67
Sledgecrushr
Colonel
 
Re: Ground vehicle driving


If they allowed you to quickly look all around from the tanks perspective, kind of like using a hatswitch to see around you with a joystick, that might be acceptable to navigate with.
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Old 2012-05-21, 11:15 AM   [Ignore Me] #68
Figment
Lieutenant General
 
Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr View Post
If they allowed you to quickly look all around from the tanks perspective, kind of like using a hatswitch to see around you with a joystick, that might be acceptable to navigate with.
Navigate: yes
Gunning: no.


(Also, does everyone have a joystick?)
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Old 2012-05-21, 11:20 AM   [Ignore Me] #69
Sledgecrushr
Colonel
 
Re: Ground vehicle driving


This game might be a boon to joystick manufacturers. Even though the last one I had was a ms sidewinder used for playing mechwarrior I am going to buy a new one to fly with for PS2.
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Old 2012-05-21, 11:45 AM   [Ignore Me] #70
Rozonus
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by Figment View Post
So, my counter-question: how are you going to gun and drive and NOT hit objects?
On the occasions that I use tanks in BF3 I often point the turret in the general direction I'm travelling so that I can do a quick scan of potential obstacles. BUT I do realise that tank gameplay in BF3 is different to how it works in PS1. In BF3 the plan for using an MBT is basically to drive to point A, stop then fire at point B but because PS1 splits the duties and gives them to different players it means that it's much easier to keep a tank moving while also firing upon the enemy.

I personally don't mind the forced 1PV because I am already used to it from the more recent FPSs I play and I don't really have any issues getting snagged on the scenery any more. I also always play with a group of friends and we all cover each other, so even if an enemy tries to sneak up on my tank they are normally spotted by them and killed. On that basis I think it's fair to force 1PV, because my situational awareness will be provided by my squad mates in PS2.

The reason why I'm not defending the vehicle changes with you is because it looks like SOE aren't going to change their minds about it. Previously if the community hasn't likde something that SE announces about PS2, and SOE are willing to change it, it gets changed pretty quickly. We have known about the 1PV and driver/gunner combo for a while now and a lot of the community have been voicing their opinion about how much they don't like these ideas, but SOE haven't budged about them.
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Old 2012-05-21, 01:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #71
kaffis
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Major
 
Re: Ground vehicle driving


I don't want 3rd person.

Cockpit view should have pretty good forward visibility. If the devs can and want to implement a rear view mirror/reverse parking monitor or whatever, that's cool -- it can either function all the time, or only when you shift into reverse, as it were.

I don't want third person, or particularly good side visibility (except when the turret is aimed to the side). Tanks don't strafe, so avoiding friendly fire there isn't an issue. Except for the Magrider, and I'm perfectly fine saying that getting increased ability to actively Magmow via strafing counterbalances the increased risk of friendly fire because it's a blind spot.
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Old 2012-05-21, 01:26 PM   [Ignore Me] #72
Figment
Lieutenant General
 
Re: Ground vehicle driving


Alright Kaffis, please show us how to drive a Lightning in PS1 without third person. Make a nifty little video showing what it's like and then get back to us.

Avoiding friendly fire has what to do with strafing? >___>

If you mean ramming... uhm. You don't need to strafe to ram someone...

Last edited by Figment; 2012-05-21 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 2012-05-21, 01:56 PM   [Ignore Me] #73
Figment
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


My sarcasm-o-meter is tingling! D:
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Old 2012-05-21, 02:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #74
IMMentat
Contributor
First Sergeant
 
Re: Ground vehicle driving


I have this vision of a typical PS2 base fight with vehicles bumping into everything, when they get hung up they get C4'd in 2 seconds, cloakers all over the place sniping while the tower trampoline act goes on in the background. Die, spawn, die, spawn, pull ammo out your ass, pocket healing spawn on squad everywhere (people appearing out of thin air). Air trying to make a difference but getting repelled by the AA equiped maxes, troops, lightnings, MBT's and wall turrets. Capture point hacking back and forth. Rinse lather repeat the above. Epic!
Sorry yeah you are right. I left out the quick-knifing.
L O L.

And yet a niggling fear.

I still like the idea of a deep cert option to let the gunner aim and use the big gun.
best of both worlds, lots of vehicles (randoms can drive without ending up with an inept gunner they have no control over) and a few specialists playing in the oldschool style of driver drives, gunner guns (regular partnerships rewarded).
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Old 2012-05-21, 02:26 PM   [Ignore Me] #75
Figment
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Just be sure to bind the third person key to something you're not used to or after one minute you'd auto-change to third person.
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