GU06 Getting the Balance Pass: Scat Maxes + All Shotguns

[Snydenthur]

Those that have used the pump actions, what is your average hits per kill. Go to players site, check your shotgun and hits count / kills. Mine is 3,08. While this is not conclusive because you don't always kill what you shoot, it should still be much closer to 1 if there was only those one shot kills.

[Bunk]

The Scatmax needed a nerf, it could hold of an entire squad which no other max could possibly hope to achieve.

[Selerox]

Right, so let me get this right.

Scatmaxes and pump actions that are OP right now are getting nerfed.

Fine, sounds sensible.

But as well as that, the standard shotguns that were completely fine are also getting nerfed.

Er, what?!

I can maybe understand a slight ROF nerf for the auto shotguns, but that's about it. There's nothing wrong with the semi-auto shotguns.

If someone with a carbine ends up facing a semi-auto shogun (or SMG) user at CQC range in a base, they're supposed to lose. A carbine's strength is that at any other range outside of CQC, it'll wipe the floor with a shotgun user every time.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Bunk

The Scatmax needed a nerf, it could hold of an entire squad which no other max could possibly hope to achieve.

In what game can that happen? The only way that could be possible is if the attackers went 1 by 1 against a MAX with enough time between for the MAX to reload. Even in a 1v1 a NC MAX can loose to infantry it that MAX fails to kill before a reload and that infantry is a HA.

Yesterday I (as a dual Mattock MAX) was about to move out to our next waypoint and seen the satellite I was at starting to turn. Went to the cap point and found only a lone TR HA with a MCG. My dual Mattocks FAILED to kill that lone HA with my crosshairs dead center from across the room and he killed me before I had a chance to reload or get close enough for melee.

NC MAXes can hold off 1-3 people before a forced reload with or without support. TR and VS MAXes can hold off about 5-8 between reloads while unsupported.

If you think NC MAXes are a bitch to fight now, just wait for us to get a non shotgun ranged weapon that I hope is coming in the MAX update.

[fierce deity]

What they can do for shotguns is to keep the current damage but decrease the rate of fire a bit. This will decrease close quarters effectiveness a little by punishing misses more. I can't fathom why people are complaining that the pump action shot guns are overpowered. Sure they OHKO, but only at extremely close ranges where if you let your enemy get that close you deserved it.

The Jackhammer however could get a rate of fire and magazine size buff. It's marketed as a sustained fire weapon, so it should be able to actually do that. 8 rounds at three hits per kill, producing a measly 2 kills and an assist per clip assuming every shot hits, is simply not enough. The NC default pistol has better kills/mag potential than that for goodness sake. Give it 15-24 rounds per clip and the NC will have a viable heavy weapon.

The NC max could use a damage nerf with decreased damage dropoff and increased mag size. I think everyone would be happy with that change.

[Ghoest9]

Originally Posted by fierce deity

What they can do for shotguns is to keep the current damage but decrease the rate of fire a bit. This will decrease close quarters effectiveness a little by punishing misses more. I can't fathom why people are complaining that the pump action shot guns are overpowered. Sure they OHKO, but only at extremely close ranges where if you let your enemy get that close you deserved it.

It sems to me that most the times i die from a pump its one of 2 things.

1 A LA snuck up behind me - thats fine I would die to most any weapon there.

2 We are both moving inside a building pop up face to face at a corner or door and someone gets one shot.
This is happening regularly now. Its fair - but its not good game play.

[fierce deity]

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

It sems to me that most the times i die from a pump its one of 2 things.

1 A LA snuck up behind me - thats fine I would die to most any weapon there.

2 We are both moving inside a building pop up face to face at a corner or door and someone gets one shot.
This is happening regularly now. Its fair - but its not good game play.

I admit I was thinking more of case 1 when I said what i did. Case 2 does pose a problem, even though it is fair, in that the pump action user will always win if he doesn't miss. I don't think the solution is to decrease the damage since that would make it inferior to other shotguns. How would you feel about a slight delay between when you press the fire button and when it actually fires indicative of a heavy trigger pull, so that the opponent has a chance to react? I believe the Saron SRB secondary for the magrider has this to counteract its sheer projectile velocity and accuracy and I haven't heard anyone complain about that.

[KodanBlack]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Looks like it's time has just about come to put the shotty away. It has served me well..

I will reserve judgment until I play them after GU06. If I feel that I have to clean and ready my Serpent once more, I'll do it after I know for sure.

Personally, I didn't feel that the shotguns, or the ScatMAXes were OP at all. They are situational and excel in their element, while being completely restricted to their role. Unlike SMG's or LMG's, which can still be used outside of their intended role, giving them more versatility than the shotguns.

Oh well, the whiners get to have it their way, and I'll simply have to kill them with higher rate of fire and longer ranged weaponry. Maybe, I'll just start using HA, shield up and walk into a room with a Devastator and a grenade bandolier for CQC, instead. Then finishe them off with my SMG.

[Emperor Newt]

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

Its fair - but its not good game play.

I think that's the main problem as with other one-hit-kill weapons. In almost all games, and by that we would have been better of without them in PS2. They always do not feel right for the player being killed with it.
It's not only about how balanced a gun looks on paper or in theory but also how being killed by it is percieved by players. And ohk weapons mostly never feel like you have been out-skilled, even if you have been.
And no matter how much work is put into balancing them, I doubt they will be largely percieved as balanced unless they over-nerf them.

[KodanBlack]

Originally Posted by Rbstr

What if they're going to pull a realism change and make shotguns less of min-claymore/pellet point sources and more like the real thing - much tighter spreads, while reducing the hitting power some?

Instead of point blank face melter, they'd be low-mid range options with a bit of accuracy slop and competitive TTKs even with a couple pellets missing (would require more pellets, probably).

Leave auto and semi-autos alone, reduce the number of pellets in the pump actions to 8, and tighten their pattern to make them into short to short-medium range weapons. It would also force more accuracy from a shotgunner in CQC as the pattern would be smaller. In all honesty, with their low rate of fire and reload speeds, pump-action shotguns still need the capability to OHK in extreme CQC to make them a viable weapon system.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by KodanBlack

Personally, I didn't feel that the shotguns, or the ScatMAXes were OP at all. They are situational and excel in their element, while being completely restricted to their role. Unlike SMG's or LMG's, which can still be used outside of their intended role, giving them more versatility than the shotguns.

Shotguns maybe not so much, but ScatMAXes are always a pain in the ass...

You only see them in close quarters because that's where they murder everything, and usually in large numbers.
Plus their lack of range isn't much of a Drawback, since Duel Minigun MAXes are barely effective after 30 meters anyways...

[Teek]

Or they could use my idea, nerf scatmax, give equivalent to other factions, and give NC a proper ranged weapon. Like rail guns. Because the Nc should have more rail guns.

[VeCoVet]

What I don't get are the euphemisms that mean a nerf to regular shotguns. While I agree that pump action one hit kills are realistic, they might not be good gameplay, the other shotguns have already been buffed and nerfed before. They've already done a pass and tightened their pellet spread, and then they did another pass and nerfed the slugs. Now because of their mistake with pump actions, they want to nerf ALL shotguns again? That doesn't make sense.

So how come they can't agree on regular shotgun balance? They keep flipflopping on them, having looked at them at least twice before. Regular shotguns are fine, hardly anyone used them before the one hit wonders. Just "balance" and "look at" and "tweak" (i.e. nerf) the one hit wonders, because any nerf to regular shotguns, even if inconsequential, will mean that they'll disappear from use, due to psychological effects of knowing your weapon is nerfed.