Planetside 2 Needs Prone

[maradine]

Originally Posted by basti

Just trust me, ive been playing FPS since Doom itself.

This doesn't count for much around here. If I still have my original 520ST and a copy of MIDI Maze, is my opinion more valid than yours? Could I ask you to "just trust me"? Would you listen?

Originally Posted by basti

Actually, yes. Someone tell me how exactly prone improved the BF series, or any other game. Tell me the exact reason why you folks want prone.

I feel like you're not trying at this point, which is unfortunate, because you're a moderator and I have a great deal of respect for the staff here. Do I have to dredge back through 50 pages and provide you quotations? I can do that. I'm usually not the first to assume bad faith, why start now.

Exact reasons folks want prone:

1. It adds a layer of tactical flexibility.
2. It is internally consistent with a firefight narrative.
3. It has been used in prior games to good effect.
4. It is an expected feature in newer games.

You don't have to like any or all of those. Not all of them are held by all of the commenters, and not all of them are equally applicable. However, you do have to acknowledge that they exist, and that they aren't waved away with the twin fallacies of "you obviously didn't play much PS1" and "prone ruins games." Bad implementations ruin games. We want a good implementation. This is the time to ask for one and argue over its nature.

For the record, I also gave you a well-reasoned reply to your 5 bullet list. I don't feel like this conversation should keep respawning from zero.

[mirwalk]

Originally Posted by maradine

You don't have to like any or all of those. Not all of them are held by all of the commenters, and not all of them are equally applicable. However, you do have to acknowledge that they exist, and that they aren't waved away with the twin fallacies of "you obviously didn't play much PS1" and "prone ruins games." Bad implementations ruin games. We want a good implementation. This is the time to ask for one and argue over its nature.

For the record, I also gave you a well-reasoned reply to your 5 bullet list. I don't feel like this conversation should keep respawning from zero.

I have outlined the reasons I think Prone will harm gameplay. What would need to be changed via implementation to counter act that?

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

Yeah, thought so.

Maybe you and Stew should team up, you both seem to be really good at this.

No, Stew looks at random youtube videos and makes wild generalizations.

Believe it or not, it is possible to have an understanding about how something will work before building it. It's called design. It involves leveraging knowledge from other domains to make reasonable predictions. Tough concepts, I know.

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by Malorn

No, Stew looks at random youtube videos and makes wild generalizations.

Believe it or not, it is possible to have an understanding about how something will work before building it. It's called design. It involves leveraging knowledge from other domains to make reasonable predictions. Tough concepts, I know.

So why aren't you on the PS2-devteam, yet?

Looks like you know your shit so much more than they do.

[Zar]

I actual voted no on this but having thought about it if two things happened it would be ok 1 no dolphin diving aka it takes 2-3 secs to go prone in a animation and inless you have sniper rifle infiltrator's can't use it sorry cloakers are tough as is to deal with and see i don't want a prone crawling cloaker >.< .... actual thinking about it just now prone turns you into a turret you can't move you can pan left to right but no going back or forward XD done so those 3 things ill vote yes otherwise exploits are HUGE for that played BF and cod till 3 and black ops in cod cause they sucked Really bad cause this stuff just went out of control

[TheInferno]

Well, we've gone from beating a dead horse and it looks like we're getting closer to insults now.

Can we just calm down? Please?

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by TheInferno

Well, we've gone from beating a dead horse and it looks like we're getting closer to insults now.

Can we just calm down? Please?

You looking for a fight, buddy?

Huh? Are you?

I bet you are.

[maradine]

Originally Posted by mirwalk

I have outlined the reasons I think Prone will harm gameplay. What would need to be changed via implementation to counter act that?

You've been active today, so you'll have to forgive and correct me if I'm addressing the wrong points.

Originally Posted by mirwalk

First is chokepoints. I see 3 or 4 guys in a stairway laying prone. They do this in a manner that allows them to shoot down the stairs while only having maybe 10% of the body exposed to enemy fire. As such 3 guys (4 if you have a medic) can hold off 10-20 people. This is mostly caused by you being prone and getting lots of cover, and lots of accuracy to shoot at the enemies. While the enemy is denied any cover and loses accuracy since they are moving.
Good tactic? You bet. frustrating as hell to the average gamer? You bet.

Small groups in good defensive positions should be able to hold off numerically superior numbers until their consumables are exhausted or the assaulting team makes a coordinated push. Getting hypothetical about the numbers involved is pointless without a model. I don't see this as an issue.

Originally Posted by mirwalk

Second scenario. Snipers. Lots of rock and cover out there to snipe from. That's with crouching. Add prone and that locations jump by 100% or more. Very difficult for people to spot and work out where you are. Especially without kill cams. Add a little cloak for movement between sniping spots. A good sniper will be damn near unkillable.

From the perspective of his target, yes. He will be. From the perspective of his target's friends, the local air cover, and counter-snipers, this is not the case. There will be situations where you are effectively helpless. This is one of them. Then you avoid them. Should a good sniper be able to affect area denial until he's located and bounced? Yes, I believe this to be true.

In summary:

MAX Crashes, Grenades, Coordination.

What else were we on about?

[mirwalk]

As I was saying with Krusty each of these things can be handled by crouching. I feel with prone you take it to a higher level then needed, to where it causes frustration for your average player. I see you feel my points are invalid and do not need to be taken into consideration, besides a play better standpoint.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

So why aren't you on the PS2-devteam, yet?

Looks like you know your shit so much more than they do.

I know you're being sarcastic due to not having a response, but I've considered applying, and I'm certainly qualified, but I chose not to.

1) I don't want to live in California, a horribly mismanaged draconian state. I'd have to give up or move away some of my firearms, I hate the area, I hate west coast hippies, and I don't like the climate.

2) They wont' pay me what I'm worth. Game industry has terrible salaries thanks to tons of kids being willing to work for dirt-cheap to do their dream job.

3) A video game is not how I wish to apply my skills. I want something more impactful to the world.

4) I'm perfectly happy where I am now. Life is good.

5) I'd lose money on my house selling it to move now and I'd rather not do that.

6) Video game industry is not good job security.

7) Unwise given state of economy, etc.

8) Wife has a good job here and living apart is not an option, nor is her giving up her job so I could take a pay cut working on a game.


There's more reasons but I'm sure you get the idea.


The biggest reason not to have prone from a design perspective is risk vs reward. Prone is a risky change that could have significant impact to the game. The reward for adding it is not great. It isn't a differentiator, isn't a killer feature. So it's a big gamble and a big cost to invest the resources into making it and your payout if you win is low. It's a simple business decision. They'd have more clear benefit from investing resources in effort in other things with less risk to the product.

[Resolve]

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

So why aren't you on the PS2-devteam, yet?

Looks like you know your shit so much more than they do.

Lol dude do you have a brain? Do you have the ability to use logic? If so you should be able to understand that it IS possible to understand that prone will not work in a game like this.

Tell me, what does prone add to benefit gameplay? Keep in mind, this isn't your average twitch shooter/campfest.

I can tell you right now that there is more reason to not add prone than to add prone.

[maradine]

Originally Posted by mirwalk

As I was saying with Krusty each of these things can be handled by crouching. I feel with prone you take it to a higher level then needed, to where it causes frustration for your average player. I see you feel my points are invalid and do not need to be taken into consideration, besides a play better standpoint.

I don't think they're invalid at all, and if they didn't need to be taken into consideration, I wouldn't do you the courtesy of quoting and addressing you directly. I think that you are drawing different conclusions from what I hope are similar premises. "handled", "higher level than needed", "average player" - each person here is walking into the argument with big set of embedded assumptions. Some of these are preference, some of these are experience, and some of these are individual tenacity to an argument.

I will happily play a Planetside 2 without prone. I would prefer a Planetside 2 with. The people who hear the four horsemen riding at the mention of one or the other are the people I don't get.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Malorn

From what I see it's about five vocal people who are on the must-have-prone crusade. Poll shows it isn't what a super majority of players want.

For me, this is about the proxy war which prone represents. Your faction wants to prevent people from having certain choices about how to play. Some of you call it camping, others slow gameplay, or whatever else. So let's skip out of the prone debate and look at it this way. Are you so confident that no-prone will solve all the problems you and others have cited that, if prone does not make it into the game, you would guarantee that you won't try to change the game in OTHER ways to try and force people to play your way?

In other words, when people still camp, still snipe effectively, still defend capture point rooms with crouching, etc, will you guarantee that you won't ask for killcam, 3D spotting, sniper scope glint, sniper rifle tracer trails as big as jumbo jet contrails, audiospotting(for who doesn't know, that means the instant you fire a shot you show up on the minimap, line of sight to anyone or not), or anything else designed to prevent people from playing how they want?

Because if we can draw a line in the sand at Prone, and not cross it, then you can have your non-prone PS2.

I will say one thing - if prone encourages camping/overcautious/unaggressive or slow play, so does a low TTK, and I know you've acknowledged that(subject to playing in Beta) the videos show a low TTK. So I know you're seeing the big picture - lets talk the big picture!

[DayOne]

So why aren't I allowed to cinematically approach a ridge on my belly with a sniper rifle?
hmm?

Hmmm?

HMMMM!?



(btw I am generally pro-prone, it adds more tactical gameplay, but I wont go into deep depression if it is not added)

[mirwalk]

didn't mean to come across as snarky. Most people in the thread feel prone is wanted, poll says it isn't. The explanations for most complaints about prone seem to come back to the poster says there are ways to get around it. It comes across as a Learn2Play answer.

Most of the people who want prone says it offers realism and tactical options. When pretty much its used to make a certain playstyle easier.

So at this point I guess its pretty much down to me wanting my playstyle to be ok while the other side feels theirs needs to be done.