Science vs Religion

[Firefly]

Originally Posted by Traak

What I think is funny is that, somehow, God gets the blame for Tsunamis killing people.

That's funny. I heard a redneck Teabagger in South Carolina blame Barack Obama for the tsunami. I've also heard the DARPA weather machine blamed for it, I've heard Arab terrorists detonated a bomb under the ocean, I've heard the End Times blamed for the tsunami... take your pick.

[Traak]

God works by written, defined laws. Known as the Holy Bible. He doesn't just randomly heal "some broad's eyes." I found out how to apply his healing power to someone who would receive it, and having learned, I applied it, and she was healed.

Even Jesus Christ, when he was here, in person, didn't heal everyone everywhere. He walked by people who were sick for decades, and they didn't get healed. God working on the behalf of man is dependent on man learning and applying how to get that to happen from God's Word.

To blame Boeing because you can't fly 787's, when they have courses, flight schools, etc. that you can take is just as ignorant as blaming God for people being harmed. He doesn't just randomly do things. He does things according to strict guidelines, and by learning how to conform to what is necessary to receive what God offers to everyone is incumbent on us.

He gave us his Word. If you discard that, or misunderstand it, or fail to practice it, then you don't get the results. How DOES God prevent children from being molested? Well, again, people having children in the first place who are married to the right person is a great start. How do you marry the right person? The one God knows is perfect for you? You have to be led by the Spirit of God. How do you be led by the Spirit of God? Know God's Word and practice it.

Having done that, you then have to listen to his leadings on an individual and daily basis. He will warn you not to let your child go here or there, and to engage in habits that make child security easier to attain. But, you would have to be obedient enough to even be in a position to hear when he speaks.

Further, the child molester him/herself: If he or she would obey the Bible, they wouldn't be molesting children, and wouldn't even be thinking and dwelling on such thoughts. As I said, it is obedience to God's Word and his spirit that leads to victory in life.

Take tobacco, for example. I think it is bad to traffic in tobacco. I don't work for places that sell it, I don't buy or sell it myself, and I try to get others to quit using it, or not start in the first place. By not using it myself, I am not going to influence others, even unwittingly, to think it is acceptable. However, if someone is making 100,000 dollars a year marketing tobacco products, he is part of the problem. If he would obey the Bible, he wouldn't be trafficking in tobacco. Or harmful drugs either. Is God to blame when people die from emphysema? "Why didn't God heal that man of lung cancer?" He told him not to smoke his entire life. If you stand at the side of the road and tell people continually not to drive over that bridge that's out, and they laugh at you as being some kind of weirdo and drive over the bridge that's out and die, now you are at fault because you didn't succeed in convincing them to not be stupid?

If you do things God's way, it works. It includes general knowledge of what he said in his Word, and specific knowledge about what he is saying, right now, specifically, to you, by his Spirit. There is such a tangled web of disaster that follows sins that it would take more books than people could read in a lifetime to explain all the negative effects of any particular sin they like to practice. Simpler to just say "Do not steal." If you do not steal, you do not start a domino-effect chain reaction of negative consequences. If you don't commit adultery, you avoid a different set of negative consequences. If you don't traffic in tobacco or other harmful drugs, you avoid more.

But, it's people sinning against God, themselves, and others that brings negative results. And God is not required to follow you around and slap your hand every time you reach for a child porn magazine or download, a cigarette, or a murder weapon, if you have rejected his counsel as laid out in his Word. He gives his Word, you reject that, then walk up and down, crowing about how God is so nonexistent, irrelevant, and stupid, pointing at the bad results of a world full of people who disobey God just like you do, and claim that your bad results prove that God sucks.

People not doing things God's way and thus suffering bad consequences doesn't prove God doesn't exist anymore than jumping off a building and dying as a result of the fall proves that God doesn't exist. God operates by laws, they are laid out in his Word, and rejecting his Word is the first step towards having a disastrous life.

And, for the children that are victims of the lack of diligence on the part of their parents: yes, they are innocent. Adults have the responsibility to care for children. If they shirk that responsibility, such as by having children they are in no position whatsoever to be able to properly care for (average ghetto anywhere) then they have abused their authority, and, as usual, the innocent suffer for fools who reject God's ways.

However, in eternity, we are rewarded with whatever we did in this life. Children who die all go to heaven, and heaven is forever. The stupid adults that abused them, by omission or commission, will, if they did not repent of their sins, end up in hell now and later the lake of fire. Everlasting fire was not prepared for man, it was prepared for the devil and his angels. If man rejects God, he dooms himself to a place that has as little of God's influence as possible, along with Satan and his angels. God does not reject man. Man rejects God. And the world we see is a result of that rejection.

[Crator]

Originally Posted by Traak

What I think is funny is that, somehow, God gets the blame for Tsunamis killing people. If they listened to God, they would have heard him instruct them to move out of its way. He's always talking, but not many are listening. As I said, why does God get blamed for people not taking advantage of things he has provided in his Word?

Has nothing to do with God. Tsunamis are caused by a natural occurrence called tectonic plate shifts. These tectonic plate shift just so happen to occur in the ocean, causing a mass of water to rush towards the dry land. If ya ask me, stupid people should stop building so close to the ocean. Or figure out how to build structures that can withstand them.

[Crator]

There's no doubt that legitimate religious organizations do teach good values and how to live a safe and prosperous life in today's world. That doesn't necessarily mean that those good values and teachings have to come from a religious organization. Or even have to be taught under the threat of damnation.

[Quovatis]

Originally Posted by Traak

God works by written, defined laws. Known as the Holy Bible.

Aw yes, the wonderful ethical and moral god who tells his people to stone to death non-believers, commit genocide of an entire race, and tells you that as long as your slave doesn't die from your beatings in 24 hours, it's pefectly ok to flog them as much as you want. That god? What a role model.

Science and secularism has lead most people away from such things that are written in god's "rulebook". Believers conveniently ignore the parts that don't sound good any longer and only look at the lovey lovey bits.

[Baneblade]

Originally Posted by Traak

What I think is funny is that, somehow, God gets the blame for Tsunamis killing people.

Last I checked only believers did things like that.

If they listened to God, they would have heard him instruct them to move out of its way. He's always talking, but not many are listening. As I said, why does God get blamed for people not taking advantage of things he has provided in his Word?

Where in his word was there ever a warning about tsunamis hitting Japan?

Whole nations reject God, or try to fashion him in their own image, then turn around in shrieking spite any time anything happens, and blame him for it.

Any examples in particular? From what I can tell, the only countries claiming anything about god are 'radical'.

God didn't put ANY misery in the world. Adam invited that in when he rebelled against God and obeyed Satan.

You mean Eve, right?

Man is 100 percent responsible for the suffering on Earth. Before man made the choice that led to Satan becoming the god of this world, the world and everything in it was perfect and harmonious.

Im almost 100% certain the cavemen would disagree.

The example I gave earlier: God says "No sex outside marriage." Man says "Ha! I know better! I will sling my seed everywhere I possibly can! There is much pleasure to be had sowing my wild oats." And the world is overrun with fatherless children.

You may have a point, but marriage is also a recent invention in evolutionary terms.

Where do you think the Taliban recruits its victims from? Universities with young people whose loving parents are putting them through medical school? Families with caring fathers who are there for their children? No, they prey on the fatherless. Just like criminals everywhere. Oh, but it's God's fault when people disobey that one principle, for an example, and raise kids in broken or nonexistent families?

I don't think you know what you are talking about here.

Disease, war, famine, are all products of the sin of man.

War is anyway. Sometimes famine is, but not always. As for disease, sort of.

God gave man choice. Man chose evil, and does so to this day.

Man chose knowledge. And even so, how can exercising 'god given' free will be considered evil?

AIDS being an epidemic spread by homosexuals that's God's fault too, the one who forbids homosexual thought and action?

I suppose you also think homosexuals created HIV as well... ?

But, oh, when it comes to Him healing or blessing someone who actually conducts themself in accordance with his Word, that's just a cosmic fluke. Would have happened anyway. It was aliens. They weren't really sick. etc.

So when an athiest gets a 'miracle' cure, you are saying it is god?

But blaming God when you or others who believe as you do die, screw up, or fail?

I suppose you think true believers don't die from dirty things like AIDS, cancer, and car accidents.

[Krowe]

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

I suppose you think true believers don't die from dirty things like AIDS, cancer, and car accidents.

Silly Sobe, he means they don't die at all.

There really is no point arguing with a religious nutjob.

[Baneblade]

Forgot about that whole Crusader mentality...

[MadPenguin]

I appreciate that Sobekeus has done much of the work for me, but Traak has put so much on the table i just have to get my two cents in.

Where you get the insane idea that God is responsible for the sins and failures of yourself and others, I do not know. It isn't based in fact. A coconut falls off a tree and hits you, and it's God's fault?

I never said i believe this, i simply stated the natural corollary of what you were saying, its very funny you seem to find this so objectional, let me explain what happened:

You said X is true.
I said, but if X is true, Y is true.
You said, but Y is ridiculous, Y cant be true.
So i say to you now, surely X isnt true.
(X = claim that God is responsible for all good things that cant yet be explained)
(Y = claim that God is responsible for all evil thing that cant yet be explained)
If the reasoning that shows X is true is solid, it must also show Y is true.

AIDS being an epidemic spread by homosexuals that's God's fault too, the one who forbids homosexual thought and action? Yes, I know, they managed to infect straight people also. But you, like many, blame God for your faults and the faults of mankind in general.

I am going to try and tread carefully here because this is the kind of thing that can get a thread shut down, but even as a non homosexual i find what you say to be homophobic, all i would ask is you try to phrase what you are saying a little more gently in future.

But, oh, when it comes to Him healing or blessing someone who actually conducts themself in accordance with his Word, that's just a cosmic fluke.

Again, all we ask for is some tangible, reliable evidence.

God's way works. Failing to follow it doesn't. He gave us all choice. You can choose whatever you want. You can believe anything. But blaming God when you or others who believe as you do die, screw up, or fail? He made you do what you do? He doesn't mess with free will.

All you are arguing against here is the implications of what you say (which i wrote in my previous post), i dont believe these things, but if what you say is true these things must be true.

What I think is funny is that, somehow, God gets the blame for Tsunamis killing people. If they listened to God, they would have heard him instruct them to move out of its way. He's always talking, but not many are listening.

What i find funny is that you either havent read my post or you are intentionally taking what i say out of context. I didn't say God is resposible, i dont believe in God, i just assumed from what you have said that you were a sort of take the bible literally sort of guy. I was making the point that if God is omnipotent, he doesnt need to put excess misery into our universe. If God were benevolent, he wouldnt want any excess misery in our universe. Since we have excess misery in our universe these two claims cant both be true. (I made it clear that this wasnt massively important to what we were talking about but it was a side point, i find it amusing Traak spent most of his post (poorly) addressing this side point instead of my points that were aimed towards him)

Man is 100 percent responsible for the suffering on Earth. Before man made the choice that led to Satan becoming the god of this world, the world and everything in it was perfect and harmonious.

Trying to tie this in to the original post, i realise this is a radical claim that most religious people would refute (since this says the only reason we have tsunamis and earthquakes etc is because of our sins), but while there are people that claim such things, sceince CANNOT stay silent.

The example I gave earlier: God says "No sex outside marriage." Man says "Ha! I know better! I will sling my seed everywhere I possibly can! There is much pleasure to be had sowing my wild oats." And the world is overrun with fatherless children. Where do you think the Taliban recruits its victims from? Universities with young people whose loving parents are putting them through medical school? Families with caring fathers who are there for their children?

You clearly havent been told that of the 19 suicide bombers that were responsible for 9/11, all of them had university degrees, many of them had masters and PHD's. What you are saying here is void.

Disease, war, famine, are all products of the sin of man.

If disease is only as a result of mans incompetence, why must all other animals suffer from it also? Seems a bit unfair, evidence please?

God got invited OUT by Adam, and has been largely on the outside since. I marvel that people figure God is in control of this world when it is such a disaster zone. He isn't in control, or he would make people, who also don't believe in following God's ways, quit molesting children.

. If he could MAKE everybody do what he wanted them to do, he would MAKE people quit being stupid and blaming him for everything bad, while finding what they regard as utterly cunning scientific reasons to NOT credit him when anything good happens.

You are saying here God cannot do something, therefore, God isnt omnipotent, therefore, since definitions of God are something along the lines of "all-powerful being" the thing you believe in isnt a God.

." I found out how to apply his healing power to someone who would receive it, and having learned, I applied it, and she was healed.

Hallelujah, we have a healer amongst our midst, how trivially easy it would be for you to show us your powers, please, record it on tape, all scientists are holding their breath along with me, im sure.

People not doing things God's way and thus suffering bad consequences doesn't prove God doesn't exist anymore than jumping off a building and dying as a result of the fall proves that God doesn't exist.

Im trying not to sounds like a broken record but again all we want is evidence. We cant be ABSOLUTELY sure the Sun is at the centre of the galaxy, its within the realm of possibility that it isnt, but everyone believes it is because of the evidence.

I know this is outrageously long and thanks if you read it all, but Traak is putting so much on the table, we just have to point out where he goes wrong in his logic.

I also apoligize if this seems incoherent in any way or there are miss spellings, this is the 3rd time ive written this out since the last 2 times it claimed i wasnt logged in and said it couldnt post what i had written, the first 2 posts i wrote were better i assure you (its now 2:22 a.m. in England and i cba anymore). i hope you appreciate the effort i go to for you Traak

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Traak

If he would obey the Bible, he wouldn't be trafficking in tobacco. Or harmful drugs either.

No, he would just be trafficking in slaves. Your bible is quite clear on the subject.

[Traak]

Originally Posted by MadPenguin

I am going to try and tread carefully here because this is the kind of thing that can get a thread shut down, but even as a non-homosexual i find what you say to be homophobic, all i would ask is you try to phrase what you are saying a little more gently in future.

Not homophobic.

From the site http://carm.org/statistics-homosexual-promiscuity

28% of homosexual men had more than 1000 partners: "Bell and Weinberg reported evidence of widespread sexual compulsion among homosexual men. 83% of the homosexual men surveyed estimated they had had sex with 50 or more partners in their lifetime, 43% estimated they had sex with 500 or more partners; 28% with 1,000 or more partners. Bell and Weinberg p 308." (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php)

From the site http://www.avert.org/usa-transmission-gender.htm

The HIV transmission route leading to the most AIDS diagnosis in 2009 was male-to-male sexual contact, followed by heterosexual contact and injection drug use.

Note that this is the transmission route leading to the most AIDS diagnosis. Not the route that leads to the highest RATE. So, despite being about 2% of the population or so, they have the majority of the AIDS infection cases. It isn't homophobic to note this.

Is this enough tangible, reliable evidence that homosexuality doesn't work as well as heterosexuality?

Originally Posted by MadPenguin

Again, all we ask for is some tangible, reliable evidence.

Well, I laid hands on the chick, commanded the devil to get his hands off her eyes, in the name of Jesus, commanded her eyes to be healed, also in the name of Jesus, and she was healed, didn't need her glasses any longer. It was tangible, especially to her. Now, I can't provide you with a medical report. I haven't seen her in over 25 years. Please don't bother stating why this can't possibly be true, I've heard it before.

I did the same for a guys knee at church one day. It was healed right there, and years later, I saw him in some shopping mall, he was all smiles, said his knee had never again bothered him after that day. This is something all believers in Christ can do, if they learn how. It isn't some special spooky anointing available for $9.95 and a packet of my special anointing oil, people are standing by to take your order. Again, I am not asking you to believe this. I have heard the litany of reasons why it couldn't possibly be God. Don't bother. You only have yourself to convince.

Another time, I had a friend whose girlfriend was suffering neck pains. He brought her to me because he had heard I did this sort of thing. She didn't believe it would work. I laid hands on her, commanded the devil to get his hands off her neck in the name of Jesus, commanded her neck to be healed in the name of Jesus, in a casual voice, and said "Now, move your neck around." She was turned her head toward her boyfriend to tell him how stupid this was. However, when she turned her head to pronounce her opinion on how stupid what I did was, she realized she was healed.

Now, realistically, even if I had x-rays, MRI's and a panel of expert witnesses, is it really going to make you say "Wow, that God stuff must be real."?

People suffering in the world in spite of an omnipotent God is the result of the fact that said omnipotent God delegated authority on Earth to mankind. To say he allows suffering, or excess suffering, as you said, is accurate, in the sense that once he has delegated authority, he can't just take the reins back unless a man has invited him to do so, because that is violating man's will. God did not heal that girl's neck until someone did something about it as instructed in God's word.

Healing and such are not a big, spooky deal, not some exclusive-club membership thing available only to the very holy, the very rich, or the very spiritually weird. It works, just like a 787 taking off works, by set, defined laws. You find out the laws, you apply them, it works.

Originally Posted by MadPenguin

If God were benevolent, he wouldnt want any excess misery in our universe. Since we have excess misery in our universe these two claims cant both be true.

Originally Posted by MadPenguin

You clearly havent been told that of the 19 suicide bombers that were responsible for 9/11, all of them had university degrees, many of them had masters and PHD's. What you are saying here is void.

No, just because 19 people, which you have no tangible reliable evidence even existed, supposedly flew a plane into a tower, were educated, according, again, to evidence that you do not have that is tangible or reliable, does not negate the FACT that most crime is rooted in fatherless children.

From http://thefatherlessgeneration.wordp...om/statistics/
Statistics
63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) – 5 times the average.
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes – 32 times the average.
85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)
80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes –14 times the average. (Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (National Principals Association Report)

[Traak]

Originally Posted by MadPenguin

If disease is only as a result of mans incompetence, why must all other animals suffer from it also? Seems a bit unfair, evidence please?

The evidence is written in the Bible. Everything evil being present in the world, from a hangnail to nuclear disasters is a result of the original man disobeying God, and rejecting his lordship. Why do peoople's lawns suffer if they don't take care of them? Because they have authority over their lawn. Why is the world suffering because man has sinned and continues to do so? Because mankind has authority in this world. What the original lord of this world, Adam, did was to hand over lordship to Satan. And Satan became the lord, or god, of this world. Unfair? Yes. But, God made a way to rise above much of the evil in this world, by believing that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, and asking him to be your Lord. It isn't complicated. It's simple. The main issue people have is not wanting anyone else to be their boss. Of course, they go to work, and make a boss rich. They pay taxes, and make governments rich, all of whom are imperfect. Then they rebel against a perfect God, throwing off his rule? Free will.

Originally Posted by MadPenguin

You are saying here God cannot do something, therefore, God isnt omnipotent, therefore, since definitions of God are something along the lines of "all-powerful being" the thing you believe in isnt a God.

God abiding by a rule that he himself made does not reduce his omnipotence. He gave authority to man. Authority carries with it responsibility. I have no authority over your children, if you have them, and therefore I also carry no responsibility. If you refuse God's rulership, you refuse his provision and protection. He is not going to kick your door down, and force you to be healed. Healing is available, and it is free. Refuse the provider, even by ignorance, then you refuse the provision.

Originally Posted by MadPenguin

Hallelujah, we have a healer amongst our midst, how trivially easy it would be for you to show us your powers, please, record it on tape, all scientists are holding their breath along with me, im sure.

I agree with the hallelujah part. Jesus himself, when faced with people demanding he demonstrate his power, refused to do it. Is the disciple above his master? No. If people genuinely need healing, and actually want it, not just hoping they can prove that junk doesn't work, or prove it does, that is one thing. Demanding that someone perform for your satisfaction is another.

Originally Posted by MadPenguin

I'm trying not to sounds like a broken record but again all we want is evidence. We cant be ABSOLUTELY sure the Sun is at the centre of the solar system, its within the realm of possibility that it isnt, but everyone believes it is because of the evidence.

If you truly, actually want to know for sure if there is a God or not, just ask him to help you find out. If he's real, he will. If he's not, then no one heard your prayer anyway! He works on the Earth through men, imperfect men. He doesn't NEED us to be perfect to use us. He doesn't NEED us to be some world-rocking superstar to assist people through us. He does what he does through people who are willing and obedient to the Bible, especially the New Testament. The church, though populated by imperfect people, is still where God does a lot of what he does in the Earth.

Jesus works, as he did when he was here in person, through the common people, such as Simon Peter. Churches have people in varying degrees of imperfection. What was God supposed to do? Only select billionaire supermodels with an IQ of 200 or above, and shun everyone else?

[Traak]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

No, he would just be trafficking in slaves. Your bible is quite clear on the subject.

Old Testament. In the age before Jesus Christ died on the cross, rose from the dead, and made the Holy Spirit available to dwell directly in the spirits of any who accept Jesus as Lord, God gave them rules to abide by.

Since Jesus has come, we have the New Testament, and it has far different rules, because unlike Old Testament times, people in this age can become new on the inside, as Jesus described it: "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

In the Old Testament, everyone who was an adult was spiritually dead, separated from God in their spirit. No one could be born again, on the inside, become a new man in their heart=spirit. (not the blood pump, the spirit man inside).

We are not living in the time of the Old Covenant, so there are things in it that have been superseded by the New Covenant. We are no longer restricted to not eating certain things, we can't have more than one wife, we are commanded to not only not murder, but not to hate.

The world is different with the presence of people who are now bona fide children of God than it was before being born again was not available. And with that difference, new rules apply.

[CutterJohn]

I note you completely fail to provide statistics regarding lesbians, since that would render your hypothesis invalid, considering they have lower rates of hiv and std infection than heterosexuals.

And I note you've healed eyesight, a sore knee, and a sore neck. Don't hold back, lets see something big. Find a veteran and regrow his leg. You do that and put it on video, and I'll believe. That would be some serious fucking evidence, which, considering you like to cite studies, you should be a fan of now.

Or are you just going to stick to healing ambiguous stuff so you can keep believing you did something and not have to face the fact that you may be wrong?

[Crator]

American Cancer Society: Faith Healing

Although it is known that a small percentage of people with cancer experience remissions of their disease that cannot be explained, available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can actually cure physical ailments. When a person believes strongly that a healer can create a cure, a “placebo effect” can occur. The placebo effect can make the person feel better, but it has not been found to induce remission or improve chance of survival from cancer. The patient usually credits the improvement in how he or she feels to the healer, even though the perceived improvement occurs because of the patient’s belief in the treatment. Taking part in faith healing can evoke the power of suggestion and affirm one’s faith in a higher power, which may help promote peace of mind. This may help some people cope more effectively with their illness.

One review published in 1998 looked at 172 cases of deaths among children treated by faith healing instead of conventional methods. These researchers estimated that if conventional treatment had been given, the survival rate for most of these children would have been more than 90 percent, with the remainder of the children also having a good chance of survival. A more recent study found that more than 200 children had died of treatable illnesses in the United States over the past thirty years because their parents relied on spiritual healing rather than conventional medical treatment.

In addition, at least one study has suggested that adult Christian Scientists, who generally use prayer rather than medical care, have a higher death rate than other people of the same age.