TTK: Like it faster, or Slower?

[EVILPIG]

Originally Posted by Figment

CoD: BO is horrid for noobs. In our friends group, my brother and I get 15 kills to every 1 to 3 kills for our noob friends. At one point I decided to just use the knife. I got 20 kills, they got 4, killing each other... We started playing BO at the same time and played equal matches since we only play at parties of my brother's, I'm at level 23 now, my brother at level 32, one is at level 7, the other at level 12 and another friend is at level 20. (also play MW2/3 and a lot of Fifa, etc, so don't actually play it more than thrice a month for an hour or 4 in a row)

The only kills the worst of the two got was when he had time to actually aim in my direction or kill the second worst. He camps continuously and is easily discovered and killed before he realises he has been spotted.

The other only got 12 levels because he discovered the grenade launcher attachment. It took ages for me to teach them how to quickstab (they gotten more proficient at that thanks to me, not my brother who gives them no chance to practice).


I ran matches where I would be a free kill all match for them to practice targeting. But their situational awareness would be so horrid, that I would come lie prone next to them and they wouldn't notice for a minute or two.

And by the time they noticed, I would already be LONG gone before they aimed at where I was... Quick TTK does not help them, it just gives them less time to learn. Consider that these people were MUCH more proficient when we played GoldenEye 64 and gave them significant health bonuses. And we'd still win.


Hence I would personally like the TTK seen in vid to increase by a half if not to PS standards, while the shield recharge is quite a bit slower.

You do realize that what you described doesn't support the point you want to make. You even ran around and did not fire on them and would run up and sit next to them? I'm sorry, but your friends just suck. Harsh reality, but true.

[Whalenator]

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

You do realize that what you described doesn't support the point you want to make. You even ran around and did not fire on them and would run up and sit next to them? I'm sorry, but your friends just suck. Harsh reality, but true.

I'm just wondering at this point who Figment was replying to so fervently that it caused him to bring up Call of Duty on this forum. How is the skill of his friends related to the topic at hand?

[Figment]

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

You do realize that what you described doesn't support the point you want to make. You even ran around and did not fire on them and would run up and sit next to them? I'm sorry, but your friends just suck. Harsh reality, but true.

Yes they do suck, that's the point. They're noobs. And it does support the point, because I also noted that their stabbing skills have improved because I allowed them to practice.

On me. By giving them the time to do so, after which they would get faster at it, as anyone practicing.

NOT HAVING A CHANCE TO DO SO, like when fighting my brother, or as noob being thrown into the PS2 version as I see it now, would mean you would not have the chance to improve naturally, in comparison to if you had some time to at least fight back - even if it would not stop you from getting killed.

It would provide you with a chance for situational awareness. It doesn't mean you'd instantly get better, BUT, it would allow you to return some fire and get better at determining where fire is coming from, returning it and learning how to reach cover.

A fast TTK does not even allow for reaching cover because you have no time to determine where a shot is coming from and thus can't derive where cover is.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Whalenator

I'm just wondering at this point who Figment was replying to so fervently that it caused him to bring up Call of Duty on this forum. How is the skill of his friends related to the topic at hand?

...Try the person I quoted? I did not bring it up, I responded to the definition of a "smartily low" TTK, posted by DayOne. :P

[sylphaen]

I agree with Espion's points and a few others for slower TTK.

One question: do you also feel like the rate of fire from rifles is higher in PS2 ?

From what I remember, emptying a full clip in PS1 would have taken a lot longer. It could be a reason why the TTK is lower in PS2 even if it takes the same amount of shots (ratio of: shots / total size of magazine) in PS1 to frag someone.

If they slow down the TTK with a "it takes more shots to kill someone" solution, at the speed those guns fire, we will spend a lot of time reloading.

We'd really need beta to evaluate the current mechanics in a large scale fight...

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by Vancha

This would seem to apply regardless of the TTK...?




What do you mean 50% more effective? By increasing the TTK by 1 second you gave both the troops and the MAX 50% more health. They were both "50% more effective", that's why the results were the same. The MAXs have made no less significant an impact...

True, looks like I'm wrong. I suppose some testing in beta will settle how medics feel.

[Sirisian]

There are two things I look at with TTK for Planetside 2. Does the player have time to make a choice? If so what choices can they make in different scenarios? The second thing I look at is if focused fire is being used. Is it just a single person quickly killing people seemingly separate from their squad or faction.

The TTK dictates what choices a player can make. As a generalization a low TTK in the worst case results in what others have described as "shoot first". Meaning the only legitimate choice to seeing an enemy is to shoot first. A grenade would take too long to travel to the enemy before you died and retreating to cover would be an assured death. No one is suggesting that, so it's pointless to fixate on. The slower the TTK the more choices a player has. If they are behind barrels it could mean making it to another stack of boxes in the courtyard while being fired at or it could mean dying halfway there. Rewording it would be the difference of stepping out of a door and jumping behind a box taking down half your shield to maybe getting to another piece of cover with almost no health. The extreme is you step out and are killed destroying that as a viable choice, making pushing forward too risky.

In the previous example I left out focused fire. Basically if the TTK is low then you are most often killed by a single player in a battle of hundreds of players. In Planetside 1 there was a nice feeling where you'd target a person and you'd see your bullets hitting the enemy along with another person's and the enemy drops because of focused fire. That's something that happens after a certain TTK threshold. Maxes might be the exception to this with the current design, but for most players it was a solo-kill with no real teamwork from his squad.

I discussed some other choices and gameplay elements that open up with a slower TTK in this thread. Basically just describing what's possible if you give people time to make more risky choices in combat.

Also to stress these concepts refer to Vancha's post:

Originally Posted by Vancha

I think the biggest issue is with medics. If people die too quickly, being healed isn't of much concern...Life and death becomes almost binary...An on/off switch.

For medics to be significant, the health bar "buffer" needs to be significant.

The same sort of applies to revival. The harder people are to kill, the greater the impact of bringing them back to life and thus greater reason to make revival take a while. If death is quick then revival needs to be quick, which turns resurrection into wack-a-mole and removes a lot of the risk vs reward of reviving someone.

This summarizes the choices a player can make. As a battle medic they should be useful. I didn't see anyone in the video healing Higby. As soon as his shield was off he died. He was revived nearly instantly it looked like making revival more important than healing. Basically a player low on health should be able to make the choice of finding their squad medic and healing. It shouldn't be game over at that point. Which brings me to the point that health should be generally 4 times larger than shields. Shields should be blocking the stray lame bullets and fall damage that players are expected to encounter in such a large game with so many bullets flying around. Health should be the important part.

I don't feel a player should have binary choices in combat.

Interestingly the next post supports this concept:

Originally Posted by Top Sgt

I think it's fine how it is now... Super long ttk just gives players a chance to jet pack away once being hit etc.

The longer the TTK is the more choices. So what if a person jet packed away or runs back for cover; you pushed the enemy back as you pushed forward which is all about territory control. Killing them so they respawn back at the same place they ran to does the same basic thing.

If it isn't obvious I prefer a slow TTK. One that is slower than the current one demonstrated, since I prefer focused fire and more choices available during combat.

[Graywolves]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Everyone should read this post.

I think Sirisian put it pretty well.

Choices

Medics being useful

etc.

[Malorn]

I think in general ever since Counter-Strike games have had a fairly high TTK, where who-sees-who-first is typically what decides encounters. At some level you have to reward people who flank and get the jump on others, but you also need to give people some chance to react in most cases or it just loses its fun.

PS1 was a game that gave you a good balance. I'd like it a little faster than PS1, but not much.

The "pacing" speed increase that I want to see is just helping people get to the fight faster, respawn closer, etc so the battle keeps rolling, but I dont' want to see a significant reduction in TTK along with that.

PS1 had it about right.

[SKYeXile]

I like Planetsides TTK, game pace needs to be alittle faster, maybe lower the TTK slightly, but i thought it was good....its and MMO afterall, I dont really want to be killed before i can see somebody...I'm sure you Americans don't want want me to kill you before I even render for you either.

[TekDragon]

I feel like there's several people in here who will only be happy if they took the "quick knife" mechanics and moved it to guns. Move your gun over a player, click, and watch an instant kill.

So skilled.

[Whalenator]

Well the Planetside team is trying to cater to the traditional FPS audience, whose TTKs have been increasing steadily from Unreal Tournament to Counter Strike to Call of Duty and now Battlefield. I like how you didn't get killed instantly but making a mistake out of cover would still end up with you dead. Maybe the TTK could be raised a smidgen...

...But guys, please keep in mind
1. That was Alpha
2. Most of them were Light Assault
3. Beta will, and I quote "change everything"

[Yutty]

Part 2

Light Assault starts hitting Heavy Assault @ 3:29; +100 kill exp pops up @ 3:30

He was pretty close but too fast? Doesn't make it look like heavy assault would be even worth it when you could go light have jump jet and ammo drop?

[deltase]

I voted for slower cause Slower TTK will promote teamwork and not CoD style gameplay!
I'm sick and tired of super fast TTK, in which camping is the way to go. And don't start on how the gunz FeELzzzzzz cause that's bullshit! A game is a game, in which things should be fun for all and not just some 2 or 4 guys who are camping, getting kills like its Christmas! Dueling should be fun and full with skill and not the first guy who shoots gets a kill! That is just wrong in video games cause people will get smart and you know what they'll do... Exactly! Camping!
Lower the TTK and let the Skill fest begin!

[Tehroth]

Realistic damage where it will take about 3 shots with a sniper rifle and high times to get back into the fire. I don't want to take a base only to have those same people reappear 1 minute later. I understand deploy centers, but those can be destroyed.