Galaxy gunships and drop pods as well as other side grades.

[Baneblade]

I hope what Galaxy Gunship means in PS2 is Galaxy with a big MBT gun on one side.

[Figment]

Question about numbers, maybe then those that NEED numbers to think can participate in my thoughtprocess.

Will a Galaxy Gunship have low-medium-high endurance to be worthwhile?
Will a solo unit like the Lightning have low-medium-high endurance?
Is it supposed to be used while engaging a large number of enemies?

In other words will the first have a time to die of 1, 10, 20 or 50 seconds?

Why are you unable to conclude that the hitpoints will be a factor 4-8 higher than a single Lightning? Ratios are important, not exact numbers. numbers are just refinement. I just work with order sizes. Those assumptions are easy to make, because the majority of options would not make such an unit worthwhile in the most extreme contexts in which it has to function, such as a base siege with 100-200-300 defenders. If it died instantly, why would anyone ever bring anything? If it can survive to do some damage in THAT situation, then why wouldn't it completely overpower smaller groups?

And why wouldn't you bring five solo Aircav? Clearly this should have advantages since everyone also has access to Aircav?


Are you all looking at the bigger context? Where you would (have to) use these? What the competition and alternatives would be? What requirements it puts on the players? It is not that hard to derive basic requirements in terms of comparative/relative numbers and sizes.

Knowing the exact numbers allows refined debate, but doesn't change anything major.

[Synical]

Originally Posted by Figment

@Synical: I said damage over time, not damage per second. The first is a total. Also, you can easily make assumptions for each of those situations and assume some numbers or ranges of numbers. How do you think new aircraft are calculated? Not by knowing numbers in advance! You have to assume something as a basis to work from - iterating and making educated guesses till you get likely numbers. Note that you do this on past experiences to get a quick start. Also you seem to Miss that durability is a synonym of endurance.

Say there are three configurations you can try. The exact type of weapon and damage does not matter at all. Crewnumbers however, do. In fact, for any unit that can have two or more gunners, the example above is true. It goes for the Prowler, it is why we used TWO thunderers or Deliverers with four people and why the Raider failed. It is the same argument for the driver/gunner debacle.

There are very few variables for these units, many irrelevant for the main balancing. I'm used to working with a few hundred...

As said before, ONE GG is not as relevant to balance than multiple. So yes, one GG can be shot down more easily. Especially by VS and TR with their AV. NC... Are screwed.

I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion to be honest, more substance then the usual, even if I am having a hard time keeping up with some of your ideas.

As far as my last post goes, I meant total damage, not DPS but I'm so used to typing it that it came out that way. Also, I know that endurance and durability are indeed one in the same, but I seemed to have focused in on the damage part more than the endurance part, my mistake.

I'll be the first to admit I am not great when it comes to working with abstract ideas, I'm much better at collecting data and analyzing said data to form a theory or argument, and seeing as how I have no data to work with I am just waiting patiently. Also, I have no experience in game development or programming, so you have a leg up on me there as well.

Anyway, back on-topic.

I agree that crew numbers are very important, I also agree, as I said before, that the efficiency of said crew is also very important, in fact in my opinion it should be the deciding factor. However I disagree that the weapon type and damage type are not.

I believe they are important because it gives us a better idea of the survive-ability and viability of the the GG. For example, if a squad of GGs engages a column of AA specced Lightnings will the GGs be able to survive the encounter to push on and actually apply their damage to their intended target. Take the same example but replace the Lightning with AA specced Mosquitos. If they can only equip chainguns which are meant for more of an AI role, then I doubt it, but if they can be outfitted with a large assortment of weapons in my opinion this is what would lead to them being overpowered.

In my opinion the GG, and the Liberator for that matter should need support from air cavalry in order to be used to their full potential, and in my opinion this is really the key to balancing them. Without support they should should be strong units, but nothing that some good teamwork can't put down. With them they should be a force to be feared. While the GGs neutralize the infantry threat, Mosquitos with different loadouts (AV/AA) can handle the ground and air vehicle based threat.

As I said earlier in the thread I am all for the Galaxy Gunship and such sidegrades that give vehicles extra utility and the ability to fill additional roles. I am in favor of anything that allows players to find a playstyle they like, tweak it, and make it their own. That is part of what made PS so great. However, I do understand some peoples concerns, and some of them I agree with even. I don't think vehicles with sidegrades like this one should ever be used to replace vehicles that are dedicated to that role. For example The GG should never outshine the Liberator as a gunship as the Liberator IS a gunship while the Galaxy is a transport vehicle with additional turret hardpoint side grades.

Phew... that was a lot longer than I had originally intended, but that basically summarizes my feelings on the issue.

[Furber]

GG's were pretty ridiculous in ps1. If they're putting them in ps2,I hope they're very careful about balancing them.

[Xyntech]

Considering how drastic some of the changes have been to some vehicles (Liberator), I wouldn't put it past the devs to do what ever it took to modify the GG to fit in with the game.

Hopefully it doesn't end up being too difficult to strike a balance between being useless and being overpowered.

A lot of attention has been paid towards a lot of vehicles having AI, AA and AV variants. I wonder if the GG will end up being more AV/AI, while the regular Galaxy will be more AI/AA. If that were the case, it would be pretty easy to balance, since an unescorted GG would be easy pickings for aircav.

Hopefully the regular Galaxy is a little better at defending itself against aircraft than in the first game. I like escorting Galaxies, but considering how important they will be, I think it would only be fair that they can take care of themselves against a few fighters, having to more more concerned about ground AA than air superiority.

[Stardouser]

As we were saying in the other thread about air power, there is confusion about whether vehicles cost resources, or only specializations to vehicles cost resources. Personally, I think a GG would be a specialization of a Galaxy Transport, so it should cost mega resources either way. So, a GG should be very powerful, but it should cost so much in resources, that losing a few in a row would completely deplete all 6 people flying one of their resources. Which means, if you are getting ripped up by a GG squad, you call in your fighter support to clean one up, or God forbid, respawn fighter yourself, and blow them out of the sky. If GG costs as much in resources as I think it should, people complaining about dying to it can make the enemy GG crew broke in resources just by calling in or respawning as the appropriate counter(under MY vision; since we don't know what reality is yet).

[Xyntech]

Just so long as resource cost isn't the only balancing factor.

Just because six people spent an assload of resources shouldn't allow them to be overpowered. It should just force them to be extra careful in using their balanced yet powerful craft, to not make it some sort of rape mobile that can just fly in and wipe everything out uncontested.

The same number of people driving Skyguard turreted Lightnings or Air to Air aircraft should bring it down easily. It would still be balanced, because those people have to organize their response.

[Eyeklops]

I think empire specific side grades for the GG would be neat.

1. TR: Guns upgrade to Pounder grenades.
2. NC: Guns upgrade to Thunderer "anti-gravity" rounds.
3. VS: Guns upgrade to Large Orbital Strikes.

[Geist]

Have not read entire thread, but I just wanted to say that GG can be balanced, since it will likely cost a huge amount of resources, require a lot more people to utilize it's weapons, and the fact that nearly every vehicles will be able to equip some type of AA secondary weapon.

[Figment]

@Xyntech: I'm betting only the pilot pays resources. It's an interesting question though, would gunners have to pay for their weapons and would it matter one bit?

I'm just wondering why the hell you'd ever stuff 6 people in an aircraft if you can stuff 6 people in three aircraft at the cost of three gunners.

Those 3 additional weapons would have to be extremely powerful to negate the effect of the extra endurance of 3 Galaxy Gunships. That would make each Galaxy Gunship gun insanely powerful.

I don't see how it'd be algebraically possible to be more interesting. :/

I'm not even sure if timers and cost would reduce the numbers, since if they don't have to pay for their own guns, just for the Gunship, then you got 6 people of which one at any point should have enough resources to acquire one. Meaning you could continuously bring one back in.

MAYBE if they cost so much resources you can only purchase one from the profits of a week. Heh.

[Mechzz]

Originally Posted by Figment

I'm not even sure if timers and cost would reduce the numbers, since if they don't have to pay for their own guns, just for the Gunship, then you got 6 people of which one at any point should have enough resources to acquire one. Meaning you could continuously bring one back in.

MAYBE if they cost so much resources you can only purchase one from the profits of a week. Heh.

Isn't it great how the human brain can find so many different ways to pass the hours until this all becomes real? Actually, once we can no longer speculate, and have to face harsh reality it may be less enjoyable?

Naaaaaaa....won't happen

[Kipper]

Maybe each gunner plugs himself into the aircraft in such a way that his 'personal' shield/hitpoints extend to the vehicle.

So GG with pilot only is at 25% health, 1 gunner is at 50% health, 2 gunners 75% and 3 gunners 100%.

That way, its as sensible to bring one fully loaded GG than it is to bring 3 with a single gunner - here comes the science bit:

1 GG, 1 crew = 25% power = 250hp
1 GG, 2 crew = 50% power = 500hp
1 GG, 3 crew = 75% power = 750hp
1 GG, 4 crew = 100% power = 1000hp

So, 4 people taking 4 aircraft would still get 1000hp, as would 4 people in one aircraft, or 4 people across 2 aircraft etc etc.

The more people in a single aircraft though, the less overall resource cost, and since it will take at least 2 to fly and man one gun, it always makes sense to fill up fewer aircraft than fly more aircraft half empty.

[Eyeklops]

Multiple hit boxes...

That way we can shoot out the most annoying gunners.

[Timealude]

Originally Posted by Mechzz

Isn't it great how the human brain can find so many different ways to pass the hours until this all becomes real? Actually, once we can no longer speculate, and have to face harsh reality it may be less enjoyable?

Naaaaaaa....won't happen

or that the people worrying that its going to be op will realize its not as powerful as they think?

[Figment]

@Kipper: That would work. I'm simply doubting it would happen that way.

Originally Posted by Timealude

or that the people worrying that its going to be op will realize its not as powerful as they think?

You just wait till the first time you come across ten Galaxy Gunships at once, shit your pants, try to play tanks for a minute, then log off as you can't even reach a vehicle creation pad and when you do die upon getting a vehicle and squandered all your resources, got stuck in the base and your AA options are reduced to AA MAX, which upon getting outside dies to heavy infantry, solo aircav and of course the GGs. If you DO manage to damage one, it flies over and lands behind the nearest hill, out of your reach, repairs and is back before you had a chance to damage any of the other GGs significantly.

That's how it worked with BFRs. That's how it worked with triple GGs tag teaming together. That's how it will work with any quick get-away, high endurance unit. :/