How do you feel about the current TTK?

[HenchAnt]

Right aways, Kalbuth: I think you are making a few good points.

Originally Posted by Kalbuth

In terms of fighting and shooting efficiency, lower TTK make things easier to casual. Aim in the general direction, click a bit, or spam mouse button, and get the kill.
When you have to concentrate on your target, which has the time to react, and evade away, this makes killing him more difficult.

With most modern "Americas Armies style" tactical shooters, "Aim in the general direction, click a bit, or spam mouse button, and get the kill." won't cut it. You actually have to concentrate on target, you have to get into position, and you have to react to the enemy knowing your position.

But yeah, a tactical shooter probably makes it easier for unexperienced players to get a kill, while a movement shooter makes it easier for unexperienced players to evade being killed.

In the end, it would be silly to claim that one takes more skill than the other. In both cases, there's no luck involved, just player performance. Yet the skill set required to win is quite different. I guess we agree on this.

Originally Posted by Kalbuth

Also, the fact you can evade on the move is important, because it means that you can move without fearing immediate punishment. This makes the fight more dynamic, without people staying back in fear of being dead as soon as they move.

Yes, that's actually a very valid point.

But you already mentioned Tribes:Ascend, which actually takes things in the opposite direction: Movement is everything, terrain doesn't matter in the conventional sense. (It matters in the context of kiting, but it's nothing that's fought over or held.)

Tribes is decided by better shooting-while-moving skills, and teamplay matters more on a ... "statistical" basis. It's not "action" based, where people do something and see how it leads to success. Like "person A provides covering fire, Person B pops the smoke to advance on the left while person C uses the distractions to come from behind". Instead tribes feels like people zigzagging around, and local outnumbering dwindling down hitpoints. To me, it feels ... more statistical and anonymous.

And Tribes actually demonstrates quite nicely what choice of weapons to expect in this case: The unexperienced sticking to splash damage weapons like grenade launchers, while trigger savy players use sniper weapons on the move. The assault rifle is just a "finisher" to take out almost-dead players in a spray-and-pray manner.

To make it clear: Tribes is a very skillfull game. I just don't think that these mechanics would give Planetside 2 that "enormous combined arms warfare" atmosphere I'm hoping for.

So, as you said, a balance is required to keep things between a camp fest and a kite fest.

Personally, I see this one at about 8 hits. That should be enough to be able to keep smart enemies in a "normal" battle at a distance of 30+ meters: There they can still dive for cover, have their wounds healed by team mates, can profit from shield replenishing over time and profit from teammates discouraging enemies from just rushing in and finishing the wounded player of.
That's the battles I want to see.

But if somebody decides to solo into dangerous terrain, without thinking about cover, retreat lanes or backup by buddies, then I would expect him to go down fast once somebody gets the better on him. And that's actually what we were seeing in the E3 footage.

(Actually, I think that "shield replenishing over time" is a big deal: It rewards players that actually get the advantage on a player and manage to drive home a series of shots in short time. Yet when playing carefully or against an uncommited opponent, this allows for staying alive quite a while. In the E3 footage, most people were soloing close quarter battles: Shield replenishing hardly ever mattered. I guess that once players get more experienced/organized, shield replenishing will increase soldier lifespan quite a bit.)

[james]

Its to large to have a Halo ttk, the most you could get away with is a BC2 ttk, but i would expect something along the lines of BF3

[Exmortius]

initial thoughts watching e3 video since i haven't played beta is that ttk seems about dead on to me but will have to see how i feel as i go against various loadouts and vehicles. vehicles should be uber fast ttk, generally with max and snipers 2nd, heavy assault, light assault. this is pretty much how ps1 was. but overall i liked what i saw in the videos.

[Deadeye]

What concerns me the most is not overall ttk but how big the ttk spectrum is across all weapons and especially the assault rifles. I want to avoid a situation like in PS1 where if you weren't packing a heavy assault weapon you were just free points for one.

If they can guarantee me that HA will not be just plain better than the other classes, then I'll live with whatever the overall ttk is.

[Grapes]

I think the TTK is fine where it's at. Planetside was waay too long, but I also think that some other games are too fast. You're going to die a lot as they say, and in the meanwhile you might want to pick up some kills too, so the TTK is fine.

[Dairian]

If the max unit are able to take headshots I hope they don't plan on the TR getting the lockdown mode they had in PS1. TR maxes will get owned! While the NC and VS will be able to walk around and use there ability avoiding them. Unless they made them immune to headshots while locked down.

[Kalbuth]

Originally Posted by Deadeye

What concerns me the most is not overall ttk but how big the ttk spectrum is across all weapons and especially the assault rifles. I want to avoid a situation like in PS1 where if you weren't packing a heavy assault weapon you were just free points for one.

If they can guarantee me that HA will not be just plain better than the other classes, then I'll live with whatever the overall ttk is.

^ This!

[Stew]

The current time to kill is perfect to me it seams satifaying and good

Higher team to kill lead to anoying combat and Zerg win over skills !

A single skilled player should be able to take out 3 guys by himself if not the ttk will lead to battle like Dust514 and it could be the worst thing ever

TTK should work like this HITBOX is everything

Headshot VEry high damage

Central mass chest shot = High damage

Hip shot = medium damage

legs shot = very low damage

This is the way to balanced thing not increase the overall health of the players and also vehicules with to much health lead to some anoying BF/ like situation In Bfbc 2 for a exemple the tanks was amasingly powerfull like they are in BF3 but a single ENG with great acuracy was able to take one out in 1 or 2 shot

NOW in BF3 its a compleat crap tanks are almost always OP in 99 % of the situation and the entire (( vehicules disable instead of blowing up )) ad some cherry on the top of that shitty sunday !

More massive the game is more Pack of players you will enconter and If the TTK is to high or even higher than it is at the moments 1 vs 2 figth will be imposible to win so ZERG and MAX will always win over skills players and its a BAD very BAD thing !


their will be tons of 2 vs 4 5 vs 12 and so on in planetside 2 so the TTK as to be Low or medium low


IF they boost up the TTK they will have to put up a way more bullets in the magazine if not this game will not be called planetside 2 anymore

It will be called RELOADside 2 and JUMPAROUNDside 2

So yeah this game have a fine TTK and vehicules is fine maybe glaxy need a little more health but the reaver etc.. are ok as they are Vehicules as to be High risk high reward they are vulnerable but they are damned good killing machine

Skills win over Numbre

Medium TTK FTW !

[Stew]

Originally Posted by deltase

The faster you can kill someone, the faster this game will become in shoot them up bullcrap! What will be the point of doing team work if you get one shoot killed? Everyone will chose snipers or something that doesnt fight directly into the frontlines and that's GG. I'd like to see bigger TTK, i want to see how you need 3 clips to kill a Max, cause Max is a Max and not a paper suit. Tanks in this build are made of paper too and how a paper tank can fight when there will be battles with 40+ tanks? Camping? Oh yeah that was the word to describe tactical crap made from campers who cant fight when on the move.

Tanks need a lot more armor and health, infantry need more health and more survivability. I hope in Beta the devs will make the right choice.

You should go play dust514 then it will be the perfect game for you

the TTK is discustingly High and an AR worth nothing also the combat is more like a dance than a combat and you can reload like 3 time to kill someones so yeah !

I do not want planetside 2 to be like this dust pile of crap High TTK

Planetside 2 is just fine at it is rigth now other than thats the balenced will be on the weapons the actual health and shield is perfect at it is !

PS : when you see 40 tanks running at you no matter whats is your armor you will die RUN or die ! Also we cant balanced a game around bee shot by 40 tanks and survive lol

The game as to be balance in the way were 1 players with skills can take out 3 others whiout having to reload 10 times and also higher is the TTK the more chance you have to die

since 3 guys shooting at one youll make 33 % and they will make 100 % you dead and you dont even take out one with you

High ttk lead to unfairness and crap

Also all your reply is base around BEEN SHOT and (( survive )) All my reply is about Been able to Kill quickly in order to survive wich one is better for skills player ? HIGH TTK is just good for ZERGING around

[DarkChiron]

Originally Posted by Dairian

If the max unit are able to take headshots I hope they don't plan on the TR getting the lockdown mode they had in PS1. TR maxes will get owned! While the NC and VS will be able to walk around and use there ability avoiding them. Unless they made them immune to headshots while locked down.

MAX units take additional damage from headshots, but it is on a lower damage multiplier than everyone else. The way they talked, it was not a great deal more damage, but it's there.

[fod]

Originally Posted by Stew

The current time to kill is perfect to me it seams satifaying and good

Higher team to kill lead to anoying combat and Zerg win over skills !

A single skilled player should be able to take out 3 guys by himself if not the ttk will lead to battle like Dust514 and it could be the worst thing ever

TTK should work like this HITBOX is everything

Headshot VEry high damage

Central mass chest shot = High damage

Hip shot = medium damage

legs shot = very low damage

This is the way to balanced thing not increase the overall health of the players and also vehicules with to much health lead to some anoying BF/ like situation In Bfbc 2 for a exemple the tanks was amasingly powerfull like they are in BF3 but a single ENG with great acuracy was able to take one out in 1 or 2 shot

NOW in BF3 its a compleat crap tanks are almost always OP in 99 % of the situation and the entire (( vehicules disable instead of blowing up )) ad some cherry on the top of that shitty sunday !

More massive the game is more Pack of players you will enconter and If the TTK is to high or even higher than it is at the moments 1 vs 2 figth will be imposible to win so ZERG and MAX will always win over skills players and its a BAD very BAD thing !


their will be tons of 2 vs 4 5 vs 12 and so on in planetside 2 so the TTK as to be Low or medium low


IF they boost up the TTK they will have to put up a way more bullets in the magazine if not this game will not be called planetside 2 anymore

It will be called RELOADside 2 and JUMPAROUNDside 2

So yeah this game have a fine TTK and vehicules is fine maybe glaxy need a little more health but the reaver etc.. are ok as they are Vehicules as to be High risk high reward they are vulnerable but they are damned good killing machine

Skills win over Numbre

Medium TTK FTW !

i disagree with almost every point you made

"Higher team to kill lead to anoying combat and Zerg win over skills "

no it takes less skill to hit someone with 3 bullets than it does 5 bullets so there is more skill in higher TTK
also a higher TTK encourages teamwork and for players to stick together and concentrate their fire on a single target instead of going lone wolf because he can "take out 3 people alone" ("A single skilled player should be able to take out 3 guys by himself")

"1 vs 2 figth will be imposible to win so ZERG and MAX will always win"

this is the way it should be - teamwork and numbers should allways win over a few lone wolfs

"Skills win over Numbre"
i say

"teamwork over lone wolfs"

[Stew]

Originally Posted by fod

i disagree with almost every point you made

"Higher team to kill lead to anoying combat and Zerg win over skills "

no it takes less skill to hit someone with 3 bullets than it does 5 bullets so there is more skill in higher TTK
also a higher TTK encourages teamwork and for players to stick together and concentrate their fire on a single target instead of going lone wolf because he can "take out 3 people alone" ("A single skilled player should be able to take out 3 guys by himself")

"1 vs 2 figth will be imposible to win so ZERG and MAX will always win"

this is the way it should be - teamwork and numbers should allways win over a few lone wolfs

"Skills win over Numbre"
i say

"teamwork over lone wolfs"

It take more skills to have quick reflex high accuracy and great sens of situational awareness !

High ttk = someones shoot you in the back you can slowly turn yourself start shooting at him call for help and finish him with a friend before he can finish you is this take skills ? is this proove anything ?

You talk like it will always be 1 vs 1 if it was a game 1 vs 1 i will say your rigth High TTK could proove who as the better aiming ( lock ))

But this isnt a 1 vs 1 game

High ttk lead to tons of reloads durring thats time the others shoot at you and you werent able to even finish up one lol This is ridiculous ! Numbers will always win over skills since their will be mostlikely rarely 1 vs 1 figth

High TTK lead to dancing instead of figthing , lead to people running around like crazy because they know they will not die so easyly

Low or Medium low ttk must be balance this way BY HITBOX this will take apart the skills and the noobs

Headshot = High damage
chest centrale mass = medium high damage
Hip shot = medium low damage
Legs = very low damage
feets = extremely low damage

This way skills players will be with their AIM Speed and situational awarness take themself apart of all the noobs

and will conter the Zerg tactics wich with a high TTK will be impossible to stop

Planetside 2 will feature tons of 10 vs 5 ... 15 vs 3 .... 50 vs 25

If the TTK is really high BIG outfit will simply zerg their way to the victory even with a low ttk they could

You must understand that iam not all for getting shot at me and hoppiong to suvive this way until i founf out whats happen and then react

Iam all for atacking with a great efficiency Not having a big life bonus thats allow me to run around while getting shot like crazy

And this have nothing to do with lone wolfing this is the reality of large scales game slike this u cant be sure the numbers will be equal no matter whats you say about team work you cant choose whos gonna be in your empire / servers and also whos gonna atack where and with whats numbers Low medium TTK allow you to make quick and efficent attack or conter atack and the skills win over number and this is the way it should be

Ill say this for the final

IF YOU WANT HIGH TTK TAKE A MAX HIGH HEALT LOW mobility the way it should be

[maddoggg]

I am sorry stew but you are just FULL of rong.

First of,a single player cant take out several weak players if TTK is high?
Really?
Funny,because in section 8 prejudice(one of the highest TTK games out there)i was tacking out 7-8 n00bs at a time,sometimes using knife only.
Because they didnt have Low TTK to help them get an easy kill,they actually had to aim and since they sucked at it they got humiliated bad...

However there is a big difference between making a 10 killsteak in a low TTK game and a 10 killstreak in a high TTK game(and yes i know since i have made a lot of high killstreaks in games like bf3 and even COD4 and i gotta say it's neither chalenging or much fun):
Low TTK game:Get lucky,camp a spot,spray in their general direction,get easy kills without trying.
High TTK:Move a lot,use terrain to your advantage,pick them off 1 at a time,be the better shoter,be more maneuverable.

Low TTK takes more skill .
That's like saying hardcore takes more skill(it's funny how all the hardcore clans get pwned by softcore clans even in hardcore mode).

So most skilled and complicated game in the world must be COD than?
TTK is so low you can play with your eyes closed and still get kills.
I bet all those 14 y old console kids are full of skill and that's why they can ONLY play on low TTK games.

I have already said it,but i ll say it again:
Low TTK games:COD,BF3,medal of honor.
High TTK games:Tribes,section 8,quake 3.

High TTK is also MUCH more important for team work.

I really dont understand why people demand low TTK of every single game.
You cant shoot and want to camp for K/D?
Fine,if it makes you happy,95% of the FPS games give you just that.
Why would you ask the only decent sci fi game to have the simplistic shooter mehanics of a game like COD.

In a FPS market overcrowded with simplistic COD like games,why cant we have a single high TTK game that requires skill AND tactic?

[Stew]

Originally Posted by maddoggg

I am sorry stew but you are just FULL of rong.

First of,a single player cant take out several weak players if TTK is high?
Really?
Funny in section 8 prejudice(one of the highest TTK games out there)i was tacking out 7-8 n00bs at a time,sometimes using knife only.
Because they didnt have Low TTK to help them get an easy kill,they actually had to aim and since they sucked at it they got humiliated bad...

.

BAD exemple Section 8 have lock on mechanics and everyones as a jetpack and very high mobility two compleat opposite game and the lock on mechanics makes everything irrevelant also the jetpack aspect of it

Would you like to come with me in BF3 ? i will play with you a record our game

[Stew]

Originally Posted by maddoggg

I am sorry stew but you are just FULL of rong.

.

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