Knife = One hit kill?

[captainkapautz]

As posted in another thread:

Just steal BF3s knife, that works pretty damn good.

[Wahooo]

To me a quick knife/melee button means, that while having a weapon equipped hitting a specific melee button quickly performs a melee action.

I vote no.

but...

NO

what if...

NO

How about...

NO

In some cases...

NO

But it would be cool if...

NO

Something I don't like in real life is the inability to answer a yes/no question with either a yes or no. Then go on to blame the question.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Wahooo

To me a quick knife/melee button means, that while having a weapon equipped hitting a specific melee button quickly performs a melee action.

I vote no.

Thanks for proving my point. You have a specific idea of what a quick button means to you and have read and thought about the gameplay repercussions in even the best implementation and decided it would not be a useful feature to have a quick button melee. There are people however that don't do that and when forced to explain themselves will simply say "well I just got done playing BF3 and I didn't like how I got one-hit with them". It's why I usually focus on creating discussions on complex decisions like this.

(I like how you didn't include any complaints. Would have preferred if you actually listed out all the reasons you've read and the problems you foresaw in them that would make you say "no").

[Zolan]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Because some of us want both (this was discussed in detail in the other threads). It's why polls like this fail so hard. They fixate on an implementation that one person wants treating either implementation as exclusive. To make a poll on this subject that includes all the possible implementations people want would be extremely complex.

Personally if I'm shooting someone in a hallway and they're less than 30% health I like the idea of a finishing swipe with my knife via a quick button. If I'm sneaking up behind someone sniping I'd rather equip it and turn on stab mode and go for a 3 hit kill. (Assuming I don't have a cert).

What's the point of having an equip-able knife when you have a quick-knife?

I think it's pretty self-explanatory why no one would put that option in a poll...

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Zolan

What's the point of having an equip-able knife when you have a quick-knife?

Two different uses. I'll assume you already read the other thread and skip the in depth explanation. Say both quick knife and equipped knife are 4 hits to kill their target dealling 30% damage each time. Now quick knife requires your soldier to rapidly holster their weapon and swipe their knife out then go back to the holstering animation to pull their weapon up again. This post-swipe delay causes a final strike type mentality. You're shooting someone and you're close enough so if you want you can hit them for 30% health nearly instantly at the cost of a delay afterwards. If you're following an enemy and just wish to knife them from full health you could simply equip your knife to do rapid slashes. (4 to kill in this scenario). Or you can change modes and stab three times assuming no certifications. Something you can't do with a quick knife button.

I already linked my favorite design a few times which balances multiple ways of using the knife. Personally my favorite is still allowing quick knife but holding the quick knife button to throw it to do the same 30% damage, but only once. If you just ran out of ammo for instance and saw a player's health bar was less than 30% health it would be so much cool to hold the the quick knife button for a second and watch an animation of your player flipping the knife onto the blade and allowing you to release it toward your target. Get it to stick in also. I digress. I'm big into giving players random choices even if they'd rarely be used.

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Two different uses. I'll assume you already read the other thread and skip the in depth explanation. Say both quick knife and equipped knife are 4 hits to kill their target dealling 30% damage each time. Now quick knife requires your soldier to rapidly holster their weapon and swipe their knife out then go back to the holstering animation to pull their weapon up again. This post-swipe delay causes a final strike type mentality. You're shooting someone and you're close enough so if you want you can hit them for 30% health nearly instantly at the cost of a delay afterwards. If you're following an enemy and just wish to knife them from full health you could simply equip your knife to do rapid slashes. (4 to kill in this scenario). Or you can change modes and stab three times assuming no certifications. Something you can't do with a quick knife button.

I would actually be ok with this implementation. So long as quick-knifing has a certain scenario it's meant for (moderate damage for finishing off injured enemies, not just running around one-shotting people form full health) and people who want to cert have the ability to use it as an assassination tool can use it in that manner. Just to clarify, you're saying all soldiers have the knife as both a single-hit quick knife button for moderate damage from very short range (right next to the guy) and an equippable version for continuous attacking/backstabs (also, right next to the guy)? I could get behind that.

I don't know about the throwing thing...lets not put the cart in front of the horse, huh?

EDIT: Also, the "stabbing mode" in PS1 involved using additional functions of the knife (TR's chain blade was like a mini chainsaw which made noise when turned on, similar to NC's mag-cutter, and VS had a knife that glowed brightly when activated).

[Zolan]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Two different uses. I'll assume you already read the other thread and skip the in depth explanation. Say both quick knife and equipped knife are 4 hits to kill their target dealling 30% damage each time. Now quick knife requires your soldier to rapidly holster their weapon and swipe their knife out then go back to the holstering animation to pull their weapon up again. This post-swipe delay causes a final strike type mentality. You're shooting someone and you're close enough so if you want you can hit them for 30% health nearly instantly at the cost of a delay afterwards. If you're following an enemy and just wish to knife them from full health you could simply equip your knife to do rapid slashes. (4 to kill in this scenario). Or you can change modes and stab three times assuming no certifications. Something you can't do with a quick knife button.

I already linked my favorite design a few times which balances multiple ways of using the knife. Personally my favorite is still allowing quick knife but holding the quick knife button to throw it to do the same 30% damage, but only once. If you just ran out of ammo for instance and saw a player's health bar was less than 30% health it would be so much cool to hold the the quick knife button for a second and watch an animation of your player flipping the knife onto the blade and allowing you to release it toward your target. Get it to stick in also. I digress. I'm big into giving players random choices even if they'd rarely be used.

You guys are taking this way too far.

This is Planetside, not Space Ninja Online.

Soldiers in heavy armor shooting laser rifles, firing rocket launchers, and throwing plasma grenades.

A knife should only be used in moments of desperation (no ammo), not as an equivalent (or more powerful) weapon option.

In these "no ammo" cases a player won't even need a quick-knife as they won't have a rifle equipped.

The only players who should even think about using a knife as a primary weapon are infiltrators, but they've actually been hindered by this new attempt to copy "popular" shooters. You can't use a chain-blade alternate setting on a quick-knife.

The knives from the original PS are all PS2 needs. When a player starts considering whether or not to unload a clip from a heavy machine gun, or stab someone with a knife, something is wrong.

It's a first person shooter first, not a first person stabber.



Less of this...



More of this...

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by Zolan

You guys are taking this way too far.

Yeah yeah, ok. When you're done riding on your high horse, listen to what we're saying. Noone wants 1-hit facestab kills and noone thinks a knife should be able to outshoot a gun. Obviously.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Zolan

I didn't say anything about 1 shot kills, and you can't shoot a knife.

You linked a pointless image even after everyone basically agreed we were passed arguing about knife lunges and one-hit attacks. Then you linked a picture of a Klingon. You seriously sound like a troll at this point with your complaints about turning the game into "Space Ninja Online". Put up some legitimate argument or drop it.

Originally Posted by Zolan

A knife should only be used in moments of desperation (no ammo), not as an equivalent (or more powerful) weapon option.

In these "no ammo" cases a player won't even need a quick-knife as they won't have a rifle equipped.

Why won't they have a rifle equipped? They'd presumably being shooting someone close range with other people presumably. They can draw a pistol to slowly kill the other player. Or as suggested they could deal a finishing blow using a quick knife if the enemy is at low health. Just giving players choices with which to deal with situations at close range.

Originally Posted by Zolan

The only players who should even think about using a knife as a primary weapon are infiltrators, but they've actually been hindered by this new attempt to copy "popular" shooters. You can't use a chain-blade alternate setting on a quick-knife.

You're trying to think of the game too simply. That is giving player exactly one way to handle every situation. Even for regular players if I see someone standing on a ledge in a base and I sneak up behind them I'm gonna knife them. I don't have to be an infiltrator to make a sweet kill. (Even if it takes a few hits). I'm not going to use a quick knife for that. Ideally a quick knife is a finishing weapon. I'm gonna use the equip mode and maybe switch over to secondary.

Originally Posted by Zolan

The knives from the original PS are all PS2 needs. When a player starts considering whether or not to unload a clip from a heavy machine gun, or stab someone with a knife, something is wrong.

No one is saying it's an effective choice all the time. It is a choice. If someone is staring at you with a rifle you're screwed. In any suggested implementation of the knife you would want to use a gun.

However... if I'm a light assault and I can quickly jet over the top of a heavy assault and mercy kill them with a knife at close range I deserve to do that. Is it stupidly silly to hack at someone 4 times (in regular mode) or 3 times (with stab mode)? Sure. But it's awesome and the game needs that level of skill.

[Ratstomper]

Occasionally, I find myself arguing about a topic that, in the end, probably won't matter much. I think this may be one of those topics...

[Werefox]

I'm personally against any man portable weapons in FPS's being 1 hit kills - mainly because these weapons disproportionately reward skill versus other weapons. For instance, a weapon that takes 2 shots to kill someone requires the same accuracy that a 1 shot weapon does, but you need to get it twice. And while 1 shot is fun for the attacker, it can be rage inducing for the recipient, and I would much rather everyone have fun.

I would be happy with a melee attack (pistol whip, rifle butt hit, whatever) as a "quick attack" that does a short 1 - 2 second stun/disorient (rather than damage) to give the attacker time to either rip out their knife/pistol or to reload. Knives should do similar damage to a pistol shot, in my opinion.

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by Werefox

I'm personally against any man portable weapons in FPS's being 1 hit kills - mainly because these weapons disproportionately reward skill versus other weapons. For instance, a weapon that takes 2 shots to kill someone requires the same accuracy that a 1 shot weapon does, but you need to get it twice. And while 1 shot is fun for the attacker, it can be rage inducing for the recipient, and I would much rather everyone have fun.

I would be happy with a melee attack (pistol whip, rifle butt hit, whatever) as a "quick attack" that does a short 1 - 2 second stun/disorient (rather than damage) to give the attacker time to either rip out their knife/pistol or to reload. Knives should do similar damage to a pistol shot, in my opinion.

You aren't taking into consideration that most weapons that can;t do 1-hit kills have much faster rate of fire and/or have much easier time hitting people (shotguns, for example).

Also 1-2 seconds is FOREVER when you're in the middle of a fight. considering we've already seen the TTK times pretty short, I don't see how adding the ability for 1-hit kill knives will make much difference anyway.

And, as always, if someone gets behind you and manages to knife you, you should be dead. This is because it's going to be a lot harder to close distances in PS2 than you guys are thinking it will. With more emphasis on teamplay, you're likely going to have squads, not so much individual players, taking points. If an infiltrator wants to knife someone, he needs not only to go unnoticed by you, but also your whole squad. Even if you don't see him, chances are your buddy will...unless he's a particularly good infiltrator/guerrilla fighter, in which case, he deserves the kill. Once you spot him, at ANY distance, he's toast.

I retain my opinion that A) knives should be equipable and useable like any weapon (no quick-knife) and B) If someone has certified for it, a backstab with knives is a 1-hit kill

[Werefox]

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

You aren't taking into consideration that most weapons that can't do 1-hit kills have much faster rate of fire and/or have much easier time hitting people (shotguns, for example).

Altering rates of fire, clip sizes, spreads, and ranges are how different damage types are attempted to be balanced by the developers. And you are right, if somewhat extreme example (relatively), shotguns would require less aim skill than say a bolt action rifle. Conversely, if I hit someone at long range with an assault rifle using 1 round bursts, shouldn't I be rewarded at least as well as the target using a bolt action?

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

Also 1-2 seconds is FOREVER when you're in the middle of a fight. considering we've already seen the TTK times pretty short, I don't see how adding the ability for 1-hit kill knives will make much difference anyway.

Yes, it is, and it was really just a throw away thought. I just like the idea of hitting someone with my medic's gauss rifle :P

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

And, as always, if someone gets behind you and manages to knife you, you should be dead. This is because it's going to be a lot harder to close distances in PS2 than you guys are thinking it will. With more emphasis on teamplay, you're likely going to have squads, not so much individual players, taking points. If an infiltrator wants to knife someone, he needs not only to go unnoticed by you, but also your whole squad. Even if you don't see him, chances are your buddy will...unless he's a particularly good infiltrator/guerrilla fighter, in which case, he deserves the kill. Once you spot him, at ANY distance, he's toast.

If someone does manage to get behind me, without me noticing, then well done that (wo)man, have your kill. However, I've been killed a number of times by a spy's knife in TF2, but only a small percentage of those have been because I didn't know they were there. More often, its with the spy running around like a loon swinging like a madman, hoping to get a hit in that is reasonably close to being behind you.

If that scenario was in PS2, your squad isn't going to be all that much use as they are just as likely to kill you as they are the infiltrator. Which you could argue is a skill in itself, but the point is he's been seen and at that point why should they be rewarded for being stealthy, when they haven't?

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

I retain my opinion that A) knives should be equipable and useable like any weapon (no quick-knife) and B) If someone has certified for it, a backstab with knives is a 1-hit kill

Would you be happy with MAX's having a one hit kill on non-MAXs from their melee attack? In theory they have certified for it by choosing the MAX suit, and given their relative lack of mobility it would take more skill to get into hand to hand than an infiltrator.

[Werefox]

Originally Posted by Werefox

Would you be happy with MAX's having a one hit kill on non-MAXs from their melee attack? In theory they have certified for it by choosing the MAX suit, and given their relative lack of mobility it would take more skill to get into hand to hand than an infiltrator.

Hehe, I've given myself visions of MAX suited players having slapping competitions in the middle of battlefields

... I think i need to lay off the sugar.

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by Werefox

Altering rates of fire, clip sizes, spreads, and ranges are how different damage types are attempted to be balanced by the developers. And you are right, if somewhat extreme example (relatively), shotguns would require less aim skill than say a bolt action rifle. Conversely, if I hit someone at long range with an assault rifle using 1 round bursts, shouldn't I be rewarded at least as well as the target using a bolt action?

I wouldn't say so, simply because that's not what the weapon is designed to do. If that is how you're playing, then you may want to switch to the weapon that is better suited for that role. Certifications will come into this as well; someone who has spent their hard earned certs on sniping (a somewhat niche ability), then they should have some payoff for that; one-hit kills (assuming they can properly adjust for bullet dropoff and lead appropriately).

It's a bit like saying you cut down a tree with a butterknife instead of a chainsaw; it's not just a bout how much effort you put into it, it's how effective you are in the process that matters.

Originally Posted by Werefox

Yes, it is, and it was really just a throw away thought. I just like the idea of hitting someone with my medic's gauss rifle :P

That's understandable, but we have to take into consideration that everyone has a different playstyle and trying to put what everyone wants in the game is unfeasible. I want a more complex and tactical spotting system, but I doubt it will make it in...

Originally Posted by Werefox

If someone does manage to get behind me, without me noticing, then well done that (wo)man, have your kill. However, I've been killed a number of times by a spy's knife in TF2, but only a small percentage of those have been because I didn't know they were there. More often, its with the spy running around like a loon swinging like a madman, hoping to get a hit in that is reasonably close to being behind you.

That's why it will have to be implemented correctly, not by shirking the idea, but my ensuring that ranges and numbers are made to such a degree that assassinations are working as intended.

Originally Posted by Werefox

If that scenario was in PS2, your squad isn't going to be all that much use as they are just as likely to kill you as they are the infiltrator. Which you could argue is a skill in itself, but the point is he's been seen and at that point why should they be rewarded for being stealthy, when they haven't?

I don't understand this point. If someone (not just an infil) has gotten behind you and gets close enough to kill you without you or your squad noticing, then he should have the kill. Again, it comes down to the details of trying to get the idea to work with all the server technical stuff to ensure it's working correctly in the first place.

Originally Posted by Werefox

Would you be happy with MAX's having a one hit kill on non-MAXs from their melee attack? In theory they have certified for it by choosing the MAX suit, and given their relative lack of mobility it would take more skill to get into hand to hand than an infiltrator.

It's my belief that the ONLY time a 1-hit knife kill can happen is if A) It's been specifically certed for and B) it's an attack from behind. That cert is another very niche ability. Should MAXes be able to one-shot people with melee? No, because they've got two perfectly good guns that they've been mowing people down with the whole time. That's not really what MAX units are designed for. Assassination, however, is right up an infiltrators, or even regular footsoldiers alley; certing to take someone out quietly and efficiently IF the situation is right.