Knife = One hit kill?

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Zolan

Why don't you guys just wrap up all of these knife threads into one single thread with a poll asking to pick one of the following:

Quick-knife or Equip-knife.

Because some of us want both (this was discussed in detail in the other threads). It's why polls like this fail so hard. They fixate on an implementation that one person wants treating either implementation as exclusive. To make a poll on this subject that includes all the possible implementations people want would be extremely complex.

Personally if I'm shooting someone in a hallway and they're less than 30% health I like the idea of a finishing swipe with my knife via a quick button. If I'm sneaking up behind someone sniping I'd rather equip it and turn on stab mode and go for a 3 hit kill. (Assuming I don't have a cert).

[Folly]

I want to see charged 1-hit kills. Sneak up behind someone, hold the knife button down for 2 seconds while your avatar draws his knife back and lines it up to strike the vital organs, then let go of the button and take down your opponent.
Attacking without charging first does less damage, attacking while moving also reduces damage.

Hitbox effects could also be really fun with knives. Slash the eyes to impair an opponents vision, the throat to cause bleeding damage over time, the hand to impair accuracy, stab a foot to slow them down...

[Wahooo]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

It's why polls like this fail so hard. They fixate on an implementation that one person wants treating either implementation as exclusive. To make a poll on this subject that includes all the possible implementations people want would be extremely complex.

Or you can accept that a poll that said,
Quick hit button yes/no?

answer? = no

And be done.

And even before you start, I have a whole bag of Shhh with your name on it.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Wahooo

Or you can accept that a poll that said,
Quick hit button yes/no?

answer? = no

And be done.

What does quick hit button mean to you? Chances are to a Halo player it means you want a quick weapon melee. To a COD or BF3 player it means you want a quick knife. To Planetside veterans they might read that as "he wants to get rid of an equippable knife and replace the system I want". To all the groups they have their own damage in mind for such a system and are afraid to say yes in case you're not thinking what they are thinking. Does that make sense?

So really the only way to handle this is with a discussion. Unless someone takes the time to categorize every possible implementation and to allow it to be polled.

Notice Folly's post about an implementation. It really shows how complex a possible system can be.

Originally Posted by Folly

I want to see charged 1-hit kills. Sneak up behind someone, hold the knife button down for 2 seconds while your avatar draws his knife back and lines it up to strike the vital organs, then let go of the button and take down your opponent.
Attacking without charging first does less damage, attacking while moving also reduces damage.

Hitbox effects could also be really fun with knives. Slash the eyes to impair an opponents vision, the throat to cause bleeding damage over time, the hand to impair accuracy, stab a foot to slow them down...

I'd enjoy that probably for the equipped knife. For quick knife I'd still prefer holding the button transition to a throwing knife after a second at in this implementation at the bottom.

[captainkapautz]

As posted in another thread:

Just steal BF3s knife, that works pretty damn good.

[GreatMazinkaise]

Originally Posted by whymad

Quick one hit kill knives? Once again SOE dissapoints trying to cater to the BF/COD kiddies while ignoring their veterans. *sigh*

We actually don't know how much damage those quick knives do... there were no melee kills in the E3 footage, just a bunch of guys accidentally swinging them instead of doing something else.

Since Melee Booster is a cloaker certification I would assume that the damage can be increased or something similar.

I do agree that the old style of knives is preferable.

[Wahooo]

To me a quick knife/melee button means, that while having a weapon equipped hitting a specific melee button quickly performs a melee action.

I vote no.

but...

NO

what if...

NO

How about...

NO

In some cases...

NO

But it would be cool if...

NO

Something I don't like in real life is the inability to answer a yes/no question with either a yes or no. Then go on to blame the question.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Wahooo

To me a quick knife/melee button means, that while having a weapon equipped hitting a specific melee button quickly performs a melee action.

I vote no.

Thanks for proving my point. You have a specific idea of what a quick button means to you and have read and thought about the gameplay repercussions in even the best implementation and decided it would not be a useful feature to have a quick button melee. There are people however that don't do that and when forced to explain themselves will simply say "well I just got done playing BF3 and I didn't like how I got one-hit with them". It's why I usually focus on creating discussions on complex decisions like this.

(I like how you didn't include any complaints. Would have preferred if you actually listed out all the reasons you've read and the problems you foresaw in them that would make you say "no").

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

"well I just got done playing CoD and I didn't like how I got one-hit with them"

FTFY

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

FTFY

Umm, unless they changed it you could just run around in beta and knife people. I did it a few times:
Same thing in BFBC2. Honestly they're good examples of why people don't want one-hit knives.

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Umm, unless they changed it you could just run around in beta and knife people. I did it a few times:
Battlefield 3 Knife Montage - YouTube
Same thing in BFBC2. Honestly they're good examples of why people don't want one-hit knives.

Are you intentionally not mentioning that you have to equip the knife for the killmove?

You video also shows why it works, because when he doesn't get the killmove it takes at least 2-3 swipes to kill someone.

P.S.: BF3 and BFBC2 are way different since BFBC2 HAS a 1hit-kill knife.

[Werefox]

I'm personally against any man portable weapons in FPS's being 1 hit kills - mainly because these weapons disproportionately reward skill versus other weapons. For instance, a weapon that takes 2 shots to kill someone requires the same accuracy that a 1 shot weapon does, but you need to get it twice. And while 1 shot is fun for the attacker, it can be rage inducing for the recipient, and I would much rather everyone have fun.

I would be happy with a melee attack (pistol whip, rifle butt hit, whatever) as a "quick attack" that does a short 1 - 2 second stun/disorient (rather than damage) to give the attacker time to either rip out their knife/pistol or to reload. Knives should do similar damage to a pistol shot, in my opinion.

[Zolan]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Because some of us want both (this was discussed in detail in the other threads). It's why polls like this fail so hard. They fixate on an implementation that one person wants treating either implementation as exclusive. To make a poll on this subject that includes all the possible implementations people want would be extremely complex.

Personally if I'm shooting someone in a hallway and they're less than 30% health I like the idea of a finishing swipe with my knife via a quick button. If I'm sneaking up behind someone sniping I'd rather equip it and turn on stab mode and go for a 3 hit kill. (Assuming I don't have a cert).

What's the point of having an equip-able knife when you have a quick-knife?

I think it's pretty self-explanatory why no one would put that option in a poll...

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by Werefox

I'm personally against any man portable weapons in FPS's being 1 hit kills - mainly because these weapons disproportionately reward skill versus other weapons. For instance, a weapon that takes 2 shots to kill someone requires the same accuracy that a 1 shot weapon does, but you need to get it twice. And while 1 shot is fun for the attacker, it can be rage inducing for the recipient, and I would much rather everyone have fun.

I would be happy with a melee attack (pistol whip, rifle butt hit, whatever) as a "quick attack" that does a short 1 - 2 second stun/disorient (rather than damage) to give the attacker time to either rip out their knife/pistol or to reload. Knives should do similar damage to a pistol shot, in my opinion.

You aren't taking into consideration that most weapons that can;t do 1-hit kills have much faster rate of fire and/or have much easier time hitting people (shotguns, for example).

Also 1-2 seconds is FOREVER when you're in the middle of a fight. considering we've already seen the TTK times pretty short, I don't see how adding the ability for 1-hit kill knives will make much difference anyway.

And, as always, if someone gets behind you and manages to knife you, you should be dead. This is because it's going to be a lot harder to close distances in PS2 than you guys are thinking it will. With more emphasis on teamplay, you're likely going to have squads, not so much individual players, taking points. If an infiltrator wants to knife someone, he needs not only to go unnoticed by you, but also your whole squad. Even if you don't see him, chances are your buddy will...unless he's a particularly good infiltrator/guerrilla fighter, in which case, he deserves the kill. Once you spot him, at ANY distance, he's toast.

I retain my opinion that A) knives should be equipable and useable like any weapon (no quick-knife) and B) If someone has certified for it, a backstab with knives is a 1-hit kill

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Zolan

What's the point of having an equip-able knife when you have a quick-knife?

Two different uses. I'll assume you already read the other thread and skip the in depth explanation. Say both quick knife and equipped knife are 4 hits to kill their target dealling 30% damage each time. Now quick knife requires your soldier to rapidly holster their weapon and swipe their knife out then go back to the holstering animation to pull their weapon up again. This post-swipe delay causes a final strike type mentality. You're shooting someone and you're close enough so if you want you can hit them for 30% health nearly instantly at the cost of a delay afterwards. If you're following an enemy and just wish to knife them from full health you could simply equip your knife to do rapid slashes. (4 to kill in this scenario). Or you can change modes and stab three times assuming no certifications. Something you can't do with a quick knife button.

I already linked my favorite design a few times which balances multiple ways of using the knife. Personally my favorite is still allowing quick knife but holding the quick knife button to throw it to do the same 30% damage, but only once. If you just ran out of ammo for instance and saw a player's health bar was less than 30% health it would be so much cool to hold the the quick knife button for a second and watch an animation of your player flipping the knife onto the blade and allowing you to release it toward your target. Get it to stick in also. I digress. I'm big into giving players random choices even if they'd rarely be used.