Anyone else think this must be a joke?

[Senyu]

if the sniper is hard to use, is pretty much useless in closecombat, and other disadvantages, i see no problem with it. Slow reloading and trying to hit a tiny spot is what the guns all about.

[Bags]

Originally Posted by Senyu

trying to hit a tiny spot is what the guns all about.

Uh, not really.

[exLupo]

Originally Posted by Volw

Do you want 50% of PS2 server pop pick sniper class, as they do in BC2?

High sniper numbers aren't because of one shot kills. It's because of the "badass factor". Guys rolling up named NinjaSkillz420 just want to be the awesome guy movies taught them to be. Snipers have a mystique which draws new players. You see it in BF and TF2 very often. You also get a lot of Spy players in TF2 for the same reason. They're usually the same players that you give the most important piece of team/class FPS advice to: "A good player isn't judged by how well they play one class but, instead, by how well they know when not to play their best class."

AWP Wars is another story but that's been well covered in this thread.

Personally, and I'm clearly biased, I like the TF2 headshot system. Specific weapons are designed around headshots and cater to players who crave that visceral satisfaction. At the same time, those superhumans who are still in college or earlier, who can pull off chain headshots with any weapon, don't totally destroy team balance. Also, it keeps some absurd weapons from going totally off the wall. Look at Borderlands for example. Not a shining FPS example but you can headshot with rockets. The models and hitboxes often screwed with it but imagine if you could reliably land those. Why would any other weapon be necessary?

I believe that headshots should be allowed but only in specifically designed situations. There is a segment of the playerbase for whom that is their one goal in shooting games and they should be acknowledged but having played games that have no headshots (ps1), selective headshots (tf2) and global headshots (a ton of others), the middle path seems to be the one that provides both a fair solution (meaning, being over 30 years old doesn't mean uninstall) and a satisfying one (ohk still an option for those who choose to follow a path balanced with that in mind).

edit: For reference - I almost only sniped in ps1 until they screwed up the netcode. I sniped so much in 2142 that the Z is -still- my most used weapon and I can't escape it. TF2? 2nd most hours are in fatty. The farthest I could get from accuracy and still benefit my team.

[Volw]

Originally Posted by Pr0tean

High sniper numbers aren't because of one shot kills. It's because of the "badass factor". Guys rolling up named NinjaSkillz420 just want to be the awesome guy movies taught them to be. Snipers have a mystique which draws new players. You see it in BF and TF2 very often. You also get a lot of Spy players in TF2 for the same reason. They're usually the same players that you give the most important piece of team/class FPS advice to: "A good player isn't judged by how well they play one class but, instead, by how well they know when not to play their best class."

AWP Wars is another story but that's been well covered in this thread.

Personally, and I'm clearly biased, I like the TF2 headshot system. Specific weapons are designed around headshots and cater to players who crave that visceral satisfaction. At the same time, those superhumans who are still in college or earlier, who can pull off chain headshots with any weapon, don't totally destroy team balance. Also, it keeps some absurd weapons from going totally off the wall. Look at Borderlands for example. Not a shining FPS example but you can headshot with rockets. The models and hitboxes often screwed with it but imagine if you could reliably land those. Why would any other weapon be necessary?

I believe that headshots should be allowed but only in specifically designed situations. There is a segment of the playerbase for whom that is their one goal in shooting games and they should be acknowledged but having played games that have no headshots (ps1), selective headshots (tf2) and global headshots (a ton of others), the middle path seems to be the one that provides both a fair solution (meaning, being over 30 years old doesn't mean uninstall) and a satisfying one (ohk still an option for those who choose to follow a path balanced with that in mind).

edit: For reference - I almost only sniped in ps1 until they screwed up the netcode. I sniped so much in 2142 that the Z is -still- my most used weapon and I can't escape it. TF2? 2nd most hours are in fatty. The farthest I could get from accuracy and still benefit my team.

See, you are sort of missing the point.

Giving OSOK to snipers, makes them automatically 'cool'. Cause no longer snipers will have to work for their kills (PS1), but it will be possible to kill much easier. Or at least it will be percieved as easier.

BC2 sort of proves it. There's often 50% of snipers (and usually at least 20%-30%) but the amount of snipers with a 'decent' score is probably below 5%.

My biggest concern is that OSOK is going to make it too easy for some to solo-whore kills, and if we assume 333v333v333, then even 20% of snipers means ... 200(!!!) people stuck on the hills sniping. It's not much fun, is it?

[2coolforu]

Originally Posted by Volw

See, you are sort of missing the point.

Giving OSOK to snipers, makes them automatically 'cool'. Cause no longer snipers will have to work for their kills (PS1), but it will be possible to kill much easier. Or at least it will be percieved as easier.

BC2 sort of proves it. There's often 50% of snipers (and usually at least 20%-30%) but the amount of snipers with a 'decent' score is probably below 5%.

My biggest concern is that OSOK is going to make it too easy for some to solo-whore kills, and if we assume 333v333v333, then even 20% of snipers means ... 200(!!!) people stuck on the hills sniping. It's not much fun, is it?

It may suffer from the Call of Duty effect, when you make something relatively easy, and also effective at killing it instantly becomes the kiddies favorite weapon. See CoD where 90% of people just grab the intervention and run around trying to be 'uber leet n0scopes'

[Soothsayer]

Originally Posted by Volw

Giving OSOK to snipers, makes them automatically 'cool'. Cause no longer snipers will have to work for their kills (PS1), but it will be possible to kill much easier. Or at least it will be percieved as easier.

They should make everything cool!

Or make the really cool stuff really hard to do well...

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Volw

(and usually at least 20%-30%)

Lets see.. theres 4 classes.

100%/4 = 25%

Pretty sure 25% is in between 20% and 30%

This is outrageous.. 1 of the 4 classes often having a 25% representation? They need to nerf snipers. BC2 was only meant to have 3 classes played, dammit!

Originally Posted by Volw

My biggest concern is that OSOK is going to make it too easy for some to solo-whore kills, and if we assume 333v333v333, then even 20% of snipers means ... 200(!!!) people stuck on the hills sniping. It's not much fun, is it?

You, ah, forget the vast array of vehicles which will annihilate those people who have taken up arms with a sniper rifle. And the cloakers. And the people with MA who use the not inadequate(from the looks of the trailer anyway) amounts of cover to close the distance to a point where the sniping is not a big advantage at all..

Boggles my mind why everyone thinks it will be so easy. Its not. Especially with bullet drop.

[exLupo]

Originally Posted by Volw

...BC2 sort of proves it. There's often 50% of snipers (and usually at least 20%-30%) but the amount of snipers with a 'decent' score is probably below 5%.

My biggest concern is that OSOK is going to make it too easy for some to solo-whore kills, and if we assume 333v333v333, then even 20% of snipers means ... 200(!!!) people stuck on the hills sniping. It's not much fun, is it?

Lets draw this out using your generous numbers. Having played a fair bit of BC2 I wouldn't even say 5% of recons are worthy of a rifle but lets go with that. And 20% of people kitting sniper? I seriously doubt that but lets roll with that as well. In a 1000 man fight with 200 snipers, if 5% of those are any good that's 10 dangerous people in the hills. A slim 1% of the entire fighting force and they'll be useless against max, armor, installation and air.

1% of the entire engagement is pulling off OHK on soft targets and that's only when the snipers are left alone. They also have to deal with air, cloakers (in PS2? Haven't found any info), counter snipers and, from time to time, an orbital strike.

The point and truth is this: It doesn't matter how many terrible snipers are drawn to the profession, all that happens is you still have a core of expert players surrounded by legions of bullet catchers. It happened in PS, TF2, BF, BC2, 2142, Tribes, and on and on with any game that included a sniper role. In PS1/2 you aren't team limited (at least to the same degree). If 5 people on a TF2 map, no matter how good they are, go sniper, you're going to lose. If 30 people on your team in PS go sniper, it's annoying from a philosophical standpoint but it doesn't make much of a difference in the long run.

Using modern OHK sniper designs from your run of the mill "realistic" military style shooter, it takes actual skill for that feature to be a realized threat. Most people will spend their time flinging wide or going for non-kill meat shots. Spooked targets then, as we have all seen, dive for cover and ruin the opportunity for surprise that was previously playing in the expert's favor. The only thing about OHK snipers in modern games that ruins anything is bad players doing poorly with them and being dead weight on their teams. PS2 will have large enough engagement numbers that, if the past is any measure, it won't be a problem. Sure, you'll have ridges of snipers but you'll still have well enough other specs to get the job done up close. The potency of the weapon, now that we've learned the lessons of CS, et al., is balanced by the limitations in usability. Scope settle, bullet drop, reload time, etc.

It'll be ok, have some faith.

[Kran De Loy]

Also having the supposed predictability that there will always be snipers everywhere will make it more common for the smarter players to attempt to avoid large open killing grounds.

I hope the terrain in the game is realistically broken up enough to make such a tactic more lucrative.

[Malorn]

To be quite honest Planetside was never really about snipers. My outfit had very few for a simple reason - they weren't effective. Most battles happened either in vehicles outside or with medium/heavy assault/MAX inside. The situations where sniping was even halfway productive was in a stalemate between two footzergs.

Having OSOK as an option for headshots for snipers will at the very least make snipers a bit more viable in Planetside. Second, since the pacing is aimed at being much faster then dying in general will be less of an issue, so dying to a headshot isn't going to be that big of a deal.

I dont' see any reason why we can't try it out and see how it works in the new world of PlanetSide 2 pacing. It might be perfectly fine. Or it might have issues at which time we can bring up later. Maybe the numbers just need to be tweaked.

In any case I dont' see how we can really make much progress on this particular topic until beta. Some will have fears, but I think the best thing to do is to take that passion and hold onto it and test the hell out of it in Beta.

[exLupo]

Originally Posted by Malorn

To be quite honest Planetside was never really about snipers. My outfit had very few for a simple reason - they weren't effective. Most battles happened either in vehicles outside or with medium/heavy assault/MAX inside. The situations where sniping was even halfway productive was in a stalemate between two footzergs.

Pretty much just the first 6 months of the game (if that). Tons of soft targets rushing to and from towers and bases. Lots of bodies and, even then, only sniper teams were a real threat. Why? Essentially OHK. Anyone else was just annoying. Not that it wasn't fun pulling consecutive 200+ shots on moving targets but you were more like a muddy bog, slowing movement by driving boots to cover, than a dealer of fate's judgement.

That and they went and futzed with the netcode. Great for in-door battles but the rubber-banding played hell with sniping.

[Valdae]

Originally Posted by Pr0tean

The potency of the weapon, now that we've learned the lessons of CS, et al., is balanced by the limitations in usability. Scope settle, bullet drop, reload time, etc.

^^^^^^

This is spot on. PS2 will not have sniping in the style of Counter Strike, or Team Fortress so long as it takes time for the crosshairs to shrink when scoping. Thankfully PS1 had this feature when scoping the bolt driver, and I cant see any reason why it wont be implemented in the sequel.

Being unable to scope and fire a shot instantly will force snipers away from close combat, and frankly anyone who can headshot me when I'm running deserves to kill me!

As for getting my head blown off whilst I'm in cover, well, thats the idea of the game isn't it? FPS games arent always just about marching forward blowing away one opponent after the other. The smart games force you to take cover now and again, whilst bullets fly all around you. If someone shoots me I'll make sure I dont put myself in that situation next time. It's not like I'll blame it on the game being unbalanced..

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by Pr0tean

Pretty much just the first 6 months of the game (if that). Tons of soft targets rushing to and from towers and bases. Lots of bodies and, even then, only sniper teams were a real threat. Why? Essentially OHK. Anyone else was just annoying. Not that it wasn't fun pulling consecutive 200+ shots on moving targets but you were more like a muddy bog, slowing movement by driving boots to cover, than a dealer of fate's judgement.

That and they went and futzed with the netcode. Great for in-door battles but the rubber-banding played hell with sniping.

Heh in all the situations in the first 6 months where a sniper was useful I was in a Vanguard, which was far more effective and actually moved the front line by killing the AMS all the snipers were spawning at or suppressing the tower. And mowing down all of the soft targets rushing to and from towers & AMS. Tanks were king then. Not a lot of aircraft (no rearm pads meant dedicated pilots had loadouts with aircraft ammo & glue-guns, not Heavy Assault...my how things change with something as little as repair/rearm), so no natural enemies other than other tanks. Those were some good times.

[Valdae]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Heh in all the situations in the first 6 months where a sniper was useful I was in a Vanguard, which was far more effective and actually moved the front line by killing the AMS all the snipers were spawning at or suppressing the tower. And mowing down all of the soft targets rushing to and from towers & AMS. Tanks were king then. Not a lot of aircraft (no rearm pads meant dedicated pilots had loadouts with aircraft ammo & glue-guns, not Heavy Assault...my how things change with something as little as repair/rearm), so no natural enemies other than other tanks. Those were some good times.

I think in the beta the Vanu MAX's must have had a longer jump capacity, because I remember flying all over the countryside picking off snipers from 50 feet in the air. Too easy

[exLupo]

Originally Posted by Valdae

Thankfully PS1 had this feature when scoping the bolt driver, and I cant see any reason why it wont be implemented in the sequel.

My biggest beef with the BD, HSR and Lancer were the post-settle reticle bloom. I understand and approve of the need to block quick-scoping but being punished for adjusting aim once you've acquired your target was to much. Sure, early on (since we're reminiscing) when players always ran in a straight line it was fine but after the netcode change and every player juked randomly even when they were alone in sanc, it was too much. I'm really hoping that weapon mechanics follow a BF style. While I like TF2 (mostly for the laughs), the care for realistic response that's gone into that franchise has won my heart.

I haven't seen anything on it (could have easily missed info) but the "no die roll" comment makes me think that the CoF as we knew it will remain a thing of the past.