Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2

[Malorn]

On one hand PS already broke the teamwork rule with single-man aircraft. The result long-term was that most of the vehicles people used were these aircraft because they were effective. Vehicles in BF games where the driver is also a gunner are also effective. It could be that this is the correct direction to go.

However, one consequence of this is that tanks must be easier to kill. I think this is a natural consequence of classes as well since not everyone will be running around with AV and we will likely have a specialized class for dealing with vehicles (such as the Engineer). Other classes will likely have weapons that are effective against vehicles/maxes but are not strictly specialized for it (grenades, C4-like weaponry, etc).

It could be the right direction to go given the class system. If we had vehicles like PS1 and the class system of PS2 then we'd have a severe shortage of AV I suspect. However if the AV we had was more effective and the vehicles easier to kill, that would increase the pacing and help cover the gap.

One fundamental difference between the BF games and PS thought is that in the BF games the vehicles were strictly limited. In PS2 anyone who wants to pull a tank can go pull a tank - there is no limit to the number of tanks on the field.

In PS this was also OK because there were counters to tanks - mines, lots of AV, and aircraft were all counters, with aircraft being the hardest counter. If the enemy pulled tons of tanks you counter with aircraft or by grabbing AV. You can do that in PS2 also but it seems the counters are not as strong when the secondary gun can be configured to also counter and/or provide a well-rounded approach. Consider if 50% of the tanks had AA and the other half had the mortar upgrade. Aircraft would have a hard time dealing with mass tanks, and infantry would have to deal with a rain of mortars and main guns.

The thing I fear now is that there are no more hard counters in the game. This opens the door for blob/spam/zerg tactics to reign supreme as opposed to good tactical decisions and countering.

[NapalmEnima]

Originally Posted by Malorn

In PS2 anyone who wants to pull a tank can go pull a tank - there is no limit to the number of tanks on the field.

We don't know that. I suspect the MBTs will have to be trained for and unlocked, as will most-if-not-all other vehicles. These unlocks may be certs (unlocked with time spent training for it) or purchases with various combinations of resources.

It's also possible (given that you have to buy access with resources) that different empires will require different kinds of resources to unlock their empire specific vehicles. Vanu might need more Auraxium, while the NC need more Grass. Dude, where's my Vanguard?

We just don't know. I suspect no one at SOE has all that nailed down either, or Higby wouldn't have said some of the things he said over lunch.

[FIREk]

Originally Posted by NapalmEnima

We don't know that. I suspect the MBTs will have to be trained for and unlocked, as will most-if-not-all other vehicles. These unlocks may be certs (unlocked with time spent training for it) or purchases with various combinations of resources.

Tanks will be free - it is only the sidegrades/minor upgrades that will cost resources.

Also, if they had to be unlocked, it will probably be 30 minutes worth of skill training. Otherwise, PS2 wouldn't have tanks for (for example) its 2 first weeks. Can you imagine the bad publicity when reviewers start pointing out that PS2 has got only infantry and ATVs?

[Malorn]

Also Higby said at the fanfaire that you could train all of the basic roles (including a tank) on Day 1.

[Crator]

Do not think he stated how long each will take to train though. Or how many you can train at one time.

[Talek Krell]

Going off EvE as an example, adjusting somewhat for PS2s faster pace and the volume of skills they've suggested they'll have I would say that it's not unreasonable that you'd be able to fill every role at a basic level within a few days at most. Then from there you spend years training everything to five and unlocking all of the crazy gadgets and cool toys.

Pure conjecture, of course.

[NapalmEnima]

Originally Posted by FIREk

Tanks will be free - it is only the sidegrades/minor upgrades that will cost resources.

To get an instance, yes. He also said that there would be some large things you purchase with hours worth of earnings.

I suspect one of those large purchases might be "unlock MBT". Purely conjecture.


Higby said all the classes will be available right out of the gate. He said there was no specific vehicle driving class. Ergo, classes have nothing to do with vehicle availability.

So I suspect each vehicle will have to be unlocked. There might be PS1-esque requirements for unlocking A before B (mossy before reaver, lightening before MBT).

We also don't know if the initial unlock is a cert or one of the big purchases Higby mentioned over lunch.


So no. I don't think everyone will be able to pull any old vehicle right out of the gate. We have no idea what it'll take to unlock a vehicle (or even if, I could be wrong), or how deep the vehicle tree[s] will be. MBTs might be the final leaf in a training tree that takes 48 hours to get all the way through. Vehicle unlocks might be flat, and require a Significant Resource Outlay.

Time will tell.

[FIREk]

I'm just saying that limiting the availability of basic vehicles at launch is a great way to run said launch. I'm pretty sure that, even though no MMO launch has ever been perfect (?), those first few days are very crucial, if only for the sake of publicity (both critic and user reviews + whine).

Classes and vehicles will be balanced against each other. If people can pull Mossies, Liberators and MAXes, but not Tanks, part of that balance starts being off.

We should treat all non-upgraded and non-sidegraded stuff, including Reavers and MBTs, as basic gameplay mechanics. In EVE, you can train a basic skill to level 1 in 7 minutes. Being able to roll out a Prowler can't possibly take more than an hour from character creation.

[moosepoop]

being able to control turrets as driver should be a skill unlock, it should not be default. its going to discourage teamplay.

[NapalmEnima]

Originally Posted by FIREk

We should treat all non-upgraded and non-sidegraded stuff, including Reavers and MBTs, as basic gameplay mechanics. In EVE, you can train a basic skill to level 1 in 7 minutes. Being able to roll out a Prowler can't possibly take more than an hour from character creation.

Maybe. Maybe not. I agree that all vehicles should make their initial appearances in the first couple days.

One of the ways they might "take care of" PS1 vets is to give them a couple days worth of free training or a big stack of resources right out of the gate, so they can get those vehicles Immediately, while everyone else has to wait a day or two (ohs nos).


Were you around in the first days of PS1? I was. It had a very different feel. AI MAXes owned. Most people had either Rexo OR AV, but not both, and folks really hadn't figured out decimators. A month in, and you start seeing some rexo/ha/av troops, though there are still lots of new characters running around. A year in, everyone has the basics covered, and a few bells and whistles thrown in for good measure. Reavers and MBTs were relatively rare that first month as well.

[moosepoop]

tank spam is already pretty cheap in ps1, if the driver is allowed to be main gunner the amoun of tank spam will be doubled. you guys need to realize this can be game breaking. it might totally mess up infantry combat outdoors.

[FIREk]

Originally Posted by moosepoop

being able to control turrets as driver should be a skill unlock, it should not be default. its going to discourage teamplay.

Not sure if trolling, or mad...

Originally Posted by NapalmEnima

One of the ways they might "take care of" PS1 vets is to give them a couple days worth of free training or a big stack of resources right out of the gate, so they can get those vehicles Immediately, while everyone else has to wait a day or two (ohs nos).

I thought about this, but one of the last thing you want to do, especially on day one, is create divisions and elitism among players. It's pretty much saying "you, sir, are a piece of crap, unlike those cool kids over there with their awesome vehicles they're probably too cool to let you gun".

Originally Posted by NapalmEnima

Were you around in the first days of PS1? I was.

I wish I was, but PS1 was never sold in my country, let alone on day one. I think there was still a problem with credit card availability, but I may be wrong. Anyway, I eventually was able to buy a copy off some site - at least they sent me the CD key when I asked them to, because I never received the actual game...

Anyways, I know the stories of the early days and can imagine how it looked like, but at the end of the day, if you wanted to get a tank on day one, you could do it on BR4 or something. If you sacrificed everything else, of course, but it was possible to see tanks on the battlefield.

[moosepoop]

i am mad, bro.

if you can single man a main tank, whats the point of a light tank then?? these devs arent making sense.

in ps1, it takes 3 soldiers to fully man a prowler. imagine if instead they could pull 3 prowlers. magnify that a hundrefold. it would totally unbalance the game. its common sense, man.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by moosepoop

tank spam is already pretty cheap in ps1, if the driver is allowed to be main gunner the amoun of tank spam will be doubled. you guys need to realize this can be game breaking. it might totally mess up infantry combat outdoors.

Call me crazy, but if the amount of vehicles doubled, I'd say that's a good thing.

[moosepoop]

Originally Posted by Raymac

Call me crazy, but if the amount of vehicles doubled, I'd say that's a good thing.

in battlefield the amount of tanks are limited. in ps2 anyone can pull one. i assure you it will not be a good thing. you wont even be able to set foot outside as an infantry.

and you know it WILL happen because the ps1 veterans are cheap as hell and will do anything to win.

right now the tanks need teamwork and coordination, so they deter ramboing. remove that and the tanks will be the new reavers.