Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2

[SKYeXile]

Zergs like to travel in fully manned 12/12 sunderers, i hear tank busters fix them right up.

[RSphil]

I find the zerg always rolls bases due to the weak defences in the bases. I think SOE should look at guild wars 2's world v world. a zerg can be beaten back by good defensive planning. ie building and upgrading bases. this could use empire resorces gained from owning bases on the continant. adding to the meta game. I am a very small outfit and intend to stay that way. I am not in a huge guild in gw2 but we are well known on the eu servers for our fighting skills and being able to cause trouble. this is how I want my outfit to be Like as well. guild limits are also In place and I think outfits should be limited and you pay to increa
se in size. if they bring outfit partnaships in this would aid in team work and stop huge outfits serving the map all over. a lot can be done to prevent massive outfits and stop the zerg gameplay. it will always happen but it may not always win.

[Beerbeer]

A lot of you fail to see the psychology in all of this. People zerg for a reason. It doesn't matter if they are in one outfit or not.

However, there are exceptions to this, just that the server population is so low, we don't see them.

[Chalupacabra]

Originally Posted by Hamma

This has bothered me since late beta and is becoming more and more of an issue (imo) as of late. I don't have solution for it because there really isn't one but I want to see what peoples thoughts are.

My outfit is smaller in size compared to most. We typically run about a half a platoon or so. We are finding it difficult to find a solid role for us in the game that isn't boring and doesn't involve getting steamrolled. This is becoming more and more difficult as time goes on. Huge outfits are able to put 100 or more people or more on an objective and essentially win with numbers in almost all fights. We are able to hold off, but it's simply a matter of time until we are struck down due to sheer numbers.

I know you said you didn't want to hear that you were doing it wrong, but...

If you are only running 2 or 3 squads at a time, you can be effective, it just might not be the type of game play you want to excel in. My own outfit often sends lone squads into bases to prep them for the advance. This happens before we have adjancency on the base. This means that when we move onto the base, the enemy discovers most of their turrets and secondary terminals are hacked, generators destroyed, and the vehicle bay has been mined.

That's a task suited to a small outfit, but it lacks the combat aspect you are hoping for. Unfortunately, any combat role you chose can also be accomplished (and probably better/faster) by a large outfit.

Still, without much thought I've come up with small outfit tactics that do involve combat. Its up to you to provide the organization though:

Liberator bombing: 2 squads is 8 libs, or less + fighter escorts. Go smash an armor zerg.
Air Raid: Enemy libs keeping you suppressed? 12-24 mossies will handle that.
Max Crash: Can't break that bio lab? Try running squads of 8 max, 2 medic, 2 engineer.
Sundy Hunt: Break off from your attack/defense and dedicate a squad to finding and destroying the enemy sundy.

Along the lines of the prep above:

Prep the defense: Getting steam rolled? Fall back to the nearest large facility and make sure you are ready. Repair the turrets, rehack the terminals, mine the entrances.

Originally Posted by Hamma

Smaller outfits are finding that they have to disband and join larger outfits if they want to even have fun, causing them to lose their own identity and be absorbed into massive teams because there are no recruits left to take. For me community is more important to a game than the game itself, hence why I've been doing this all these years.

As others have pointed out, you could ally yourself with other outfits rather than disbanding. There are plenty of examples of that already.

[Thannis]

For my outfit, I purposely have us go where the major zergfit of my server ISN'T because they ruin any fight and fun there is at a base. Their officers put out a false olive branch of cooperation, but when other officers of my outfit tried to make good on their offer, we pretty much got shit in our face. Also add into the fact that because they are as large as they are, I don't find it surprising to find that when I get TK'd they're a member of said zergfit; furthering my contempt for their lot.

[Huma]

The issue really isn't with Zerg or no Zerg. Whether their organized or not they've always been a force to recon with. In PS1 there were a number of mitigating features built into the game that allowed smaller teams to hold out against a much larger force. Those features being controlled entry points, underground spawns, and excellent CE deployables.

It also helped that you didn't have to face the Zerg head on to participate in a fight. You could swing around behind the Zerg and disable a key base to draw some of them off the main fight and deprive them of key assets. Granted Gen Dropping was a huge pain but having the ability to open up another front in an unexpected area helped make things varied.

My point is that it isn't that the outfits are to big or that some of them are just turning Zerg. The problem is that key features that gave smaller outfits options and defensibility are just not present in the game at the moment. At least not in the same way they were on PS1. Granted there are some good places like Raven's Landing where natural terrain makes the outpost more defensible than large bases with gate shields. But those gems are few and far between.

[Mr Underbeard]

It is obvious that the smaller outfits are at a disadvantage. However, limiting the size of the outfits is not going to stop the problem. For example: outfit X has more than the outfit cap allows. Solution, create outfit 2X, and put the rest of the outfit in there. Communication is a non-issue, as most, if not all, outfits use some form of third party communication (TS, Mumble, etc).

Now I have nothing against any size of outfit. All the different outfits make up the community, and I believe that the only viable solution for smaller outfits is to make alliances with other outfits. I will admit that I am apart of a rather large outfit, and love the experience. We do operate on a large scale with tons of players online at once, but we are not a zerg. There is a difference between having numbers, and a zerg.

[Hamma]

Originally Posted by p0intman

There needs to be content for smaller, more precise outfits to thrive off of where large numbers of groups and armor won't work or isn't viable.

Holy crap, something I agree with p0intman on. Tomorrow really is the end of the world.

[DviddLeff]

In my eyes one major problem is that we only have three continents - as long as you are taking ground on one why go anywhere else? This encourages each empire to pick a continent and get their forces there primarily where they can take ground to grab a new continental lock perk only pulling off when their existing lock comes under threat as another empire nears victory.

Outfits are not the problem - if a force is zerging one point then hit them behind their main force and make them split to deal with you in multiple points. Small outfits just need to pick their targets and not engage the enemy zerg head on.

[NewSith]

Originally Posted by Huma

Granted there are some good places like Raven's Landing where natural terrain turns makes the outpost more defensible than large bases with gate shields. But those gems are few and far between.

And people rarely fight for them, because it is hard to attack them, while they can just go and capture "DAT BAYZ" and get some instant XP boost.

[Rolfski]

This game was designed with massive battles in mind, so whoever brings the most organized numbers to the table is at a clear advantage. The tricky part is the word "organized" though.

With increasing numbers, organization becomes more challenging. So a big outfit doesn't necessarily mean a well organized outfit. Running multiple full platoons in an tight, orchestrated way is an art in itself. So it's here where the smaller outfits can take the edge. Also, being a smaller outfit doesn't mean that you can't deploy a big army of your own. Organize yourself with other smaller outfits, set up your comms and form a multiple-outfit alliance with the potential to be more effective than any huge outfit out there.

Having said this, I think the game could use more love for smaller teams to become more meaningful.

[waldizzo]

Objectives similar to gen holds and NTU drains and lattice breaking were things that smaller groups of players traditionally did in PS1. I'm not saying I want those exact objectives in PS2, but something of a similar nature.

For example: In the original game, blowing a generator was not something an outfit would send 200 guys in tanks to complete. Even if a large outfit with hundreds of members were to do perform that tactic, only a small group of them would go. Smaller groups of opposing forces would be the ones to respond most of the time.

In the current game, if a smaller group of players attempts to do something similar, such as capture territory around a base to increase influence or cut off the enemy, they are almost instantly met with a huge tank column that spams shells through door ways, windows and camps the spawn room. As we found out last night while trying to defend a blown generator at an enemy tech plant, the tanks just shoot the outside walls and their HE rounds hit us on the inside. Through the walls.

Granted, I am really interested in seeing how more continents affects the flow of game. Spreading the players out more will help in my opinion.

[Natir]

Being a part of a larger outfit, I can say I feel very bad for smaller outfits. There just isn't much for them to do and less they can actually do on their own. Taking a platoon worth of guys and capturing a bio lab against a bigger force? Could be trouble. The problem is that this game is about numbers and spawn points right now. If you control the most spawn points and have the larger force, you tend to win... a majority of the time.

This is in no way to sound like we are gloating, just stating a simple fact that this game is about numbers and that is a bad thing. In the future, I hope this to not be the case but as it stands, we are stuck with it. When we have lost a territory, it is because of we either had way less guys or 0 spawn points. More emphasis on the spawn points. Like I said, this isn't about gloating and is all about how the game works right now. There are many things we want in this game that would also benefit smaller outfits.

1) Cap times are way too quick. If a territory is being capped back from you, you sometimes don't even have time to blink before it is lost.

2) The tools for platoon and outfit management are terrible. You can't even link more than one platoon. Something that would be amazing for smaller outfits. Think of being able to be attached as a company for a larger outfit. While this greatly helps large outfits, it also can help smaller outfits with alliances and working together. Makes for managing all those people less hectic.

3) You want to defend a base, you are fucked. You get no benefit for defending any territory so why bother? This right here is a big one for smaller outfits. This game is all about getting EXP for those cert points and when you defend anything, it means nothing other then adding another defense number to your list. Defending most bases, facilities and outposts are also hard as hell since all the enemy has to do is just mass up either with a few AMS's, a bunch of infantry or zerg that point down with armor and air.

4) The "zerg" typically move from point to point to point so if you are a smaller outfit, you need to avoid them. Right now, what can you do if the zerg is pushing in as a small outfit? Nothing.

There are many things that can help but I only list a few. Most of these things that help smaller outfits, help larger outfits as well. By adding in a change for one is a change for all. Lets hope this some of these tools and some of the meta game related shit gets changed soon. <3

[Malorn]

First, none of what I am posting here is in any way an indication of upcoming features or a promise of change, so don't be citing my response here as evidence of upcoming changes. The only promise I will make is that I will do all I can to make this game as enjoyable as possible for all sized groups and all types of players.

This is a great thread for information about meta-game issues facing outfits. The biggest is relevancy of a small outfit. I ran a small outfit in PS1, and I run with a very large outfit in PS2, so please believe me when I tell you that I understand what you are all saying here from both sides of the fence.


On the topic of large outfits and small outfits...

PS and PS2 have always been massive games, and as the slogan says - size always matters. I know there's animosity against large outfits but they are not all the same. Robocpf1 of GOTR mentioned earlier in this thread how his group organizes and also indicates Enclave's organization. There's a big difference between groups like AT, GOTR, and the Enclave, and groups that simply gobble up everyone they can and throw them at an objective. The latter is a huge waste of resources. And that waste can be (and is) exploited by more organized forces.

As TotalBiscuit mentioned in a mail response months ago, PlanetSide 2 is at its core a logistical game. Numbers matter in a logistical game, but not just numbers but how you organize them. There are force multipliers - vehicles, and there are strategic plays you can make. Ever see Buzz go for a warpgate camp on an enemy empire? He does that because it shifts their entire empire to defending by their warpgate rather than pushing deeper into hostile territory. You may also see Enclave pull a swarm of Dalton liberators to annihilate a tank zerg because in PS2, much like PS1, often times when players lose their vehicles they don't immediately go get another one. It helps shift the momentum of the battle and remove enemy force multipliers. And as robocpf1 mentioned, Enclave is typically putting 13 squads at different locations and only dumps the entire outfit on a location when we are fighting off multiple platoons. So you rarely see the full force of the outfit - its far too big to put into one location and putting them all in one location is a huge waste of resources and it isn't fun at all to steamroll the enemy with little resistance (it also gets you very few certs).

Smaller outfits can't be thinking like they are instant game-changers, but they can specialize and go for certain objectives and indirectly be huge factors in the success of the empire. One objective would be to shift the vehicle zergs - roll as many libs as you can, or bring in a swarm of air-to-air fighters to try to gain air superiority. Or set up a burster nest in a key location. These are things a small outfit can do to maximize their own efficiency while bringing something valuable to the situation. Can they single-handedly take on three times their numbers and succeed? No - and they shouldn't expect to. What they can do for now is look for ways to make a difference and study the meta game elements and work towards helping them. As more elements are added and improvements are made you will hopefully see more opportunities for the small outfits to shine.

To provide an example - one night I was on Amerish with a platoon of Enclave. It was very late at night because I'm a night owl and a West-coaster on an East coast server. NC outnumbered us 2:1 on the continent and there was no VS presence. Could we lock the continent? Of course not. But we could - and did - prevent the NC from locking it. We leveraged our organization to hop around from territory to territory, and we set up burster nests to greet the first responders - libs and reavers. By the time the ground forces showed up we had secured another territory and we moved on. We kept bouncing around and destroying aircraft, and we successfully prevented the NC from locking Amerish. We did that as a relatively small group against a much larger unorganized force. So one thing to consider is to shift your focus - dont' try to conquer the world, just try to make a difference in a smaller setting and find ways to leverage your own strengths to attain a challenging but achievable goal.

And now regarding the meta-game and how we can make things better...

There are also valid metagame concerns being brought here that aren't falling on deaf ears. I am particularly concerned about defense and the lack of the ability to do rapid response. That is something my outfit and many others loved in PS1 because it was a way to avoid the big zerg fights if you didn't want to participate. I think creating alternate ways to enjoy the game is good, and the existence of influence and small outposts is a clear indication that the game is intended to have larger fights and smaller ones going on simultaneously and provide enjoyment for players who like all sizes of engagements. So the real issue here to me is that we have not gotten the intended result.

It would be helpful to me if those in small and large outfits alike could comment on what they think would help make the game more enjoyable for them. Please think about the core issue and not symptoms of it. I already see you all want more tools for cross-outfit coordination. But at a more fundamental level...

* Do resources need a bigger role? (in theory, a small outfit can better do resource denial with small territories)
* Does territory capture need to be slowed down to allow for response, regrouping, and to wear down a zerg?
* Does defense need to be more rewarding XP-wise?
* Do vehicles need to cost more resources to help reduce spam?
* Do deployment options need to be reduced to encourage more natural concentration of force? (I'm thinking PS1 here where you had 3-4 options on where to spawn and it kept forces together so you weren't steamrolled as much and opened up opportunity for small outfits to avoid the concentrations)

This is a sampling of the things I think about every day (all of which I'm leaning 'yes' towards - some feedback from you would be helpful). Feel free to add to the questions I posed above. I'm reading the responses here and paying attention. Love to know what you think.

And as you can see in my sig - I play a lot of PS2!

[elementHTTP]

Rly good point hamma !
Maybe outfit size limit as temp solution ?