Systems: AV and AI rounds for tanks

[Traak]

AV rounds are more of the APFSDS type, drill through and kill anyone in the same vehicle compartment. No splash whatsoever, but instagib if infantry: cloakers, softies, RExos get hit directly. Less effect on soft vehicles, because they would drill a neat hole but not do much else. (even RPG rounds can pass right through skins of soft vehicles and not blow up in the real world).

AI rounds are HE and have big splash, and almost no effect on tanks, unless you scored a direct hit on a tread, but big effect on infantry and also big effect on soft-skinned vehicles.

An alternative would be a "beehive" round that would be like a massive shotgun, as used in Vietnam when hoardes of enemies were overrunning artillery positions.

[FIREk]

To simplify things the anti-tank round would be easier to aim with (as it's faster and flies in a straighter arc). It should, indeed, be weaker against buggies and other light vehicles, for balance purposes, but should be quite effective against aircraft (to reward quick, opportunistic aiming).

Essentially the HE round would work like tanks shells in BFBC2 or PS1, but with reduced effectiveness against tanks and Sunderers. The anti-tank rounds would be similar in use to PS1's Magrider cannon, but fly in an arc nevertheless.

Magriders could have two firing modes, to benefit from this. One mode would be a focuses, Lancer-like bolt, and the other one would be a plasma blob, much like the Aurora's cannon (only with more range, more damage and lower rate of fire).

[CutterJohn]

I'm game.

Tbh I'd like it for the 20s as well. The 25mm Bushmaster has the capacity for dual feed to fire different types of ammo at the flip of a switch.


Buggies I think would be fine as they stood, decent vs everything, but should cycle between a short range high burst high dps weapon, and a longer range, lower dps fire mode. Kinda like the thresher being able to shoot normally(though with a bit more speed.. those orbs were stupidly slow), and a toggle to the aurora fire mode.

[Traak]

Originally Posted by FIREk

To simplify things the anti-tank round would be easier to aim with (as it's faster and flies in a straighter arc).

This.

The greatest threat to tanks should be other tanks.

I remember hearing about an Iraqi armor general or some such who said something to this effect:

Our tanks survived for months of the naval blockade and sanctions. They survived for weeks of aerial attacks. Then the M1A1s showed up and they lasted for fifteen minutes.

[Sirisian]

I don't like the idea of the main cannon being used for more than AV damage. It's important to keep the roles of vehicles specific. You end up treading into BFR territory when you allow a vehicle to become both a strong AV or AI vehicle. (Debatable if this is bad).

Also the whole reason for having secondary gunners is to offset the weakness of AV. For instance if a driver is using a vehicle they're only commanding the main cannon. Suddenly if an AV user drops in on a tank they're weak. They'd either try to hit the AV user or run away because the turret won't rotate fast enough. If they have a gunner manning AI rocket batteries on the top, for instance, they don't have to worry. Suddenly their weakness to AI is handled. (They still have a weakness to AA).

This as a whole creates a sense of symbiotic teamwork where player work together to offset their weaknesses.

Also if this isn't obvious, tanks should be fighting vehicles. Not infantry. That is vehicles should be balanced against vehicles, not infantry.

[Traak]

I see. So, tanks that have too much AI capability would become to ubiquitous and unbalanced?

What if the AI rounds had the same effect as the OLD PS tank rounds against infantry, not some uber-frag-grenade, but just the same splash, but the AV had almost zero effect unless a direct hit was scored?

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Traak

I see. So, tanks that have too much AI capability would become to ubiquitous and unbalanced?

Not quite. They're probably just tread into other vehicle's territory. It's at the same level of giving a reaver AI rockets. It skews what their main focus is. Why pull X when Y does the same thing essentially. Some people view this artificial modifier stuff on weapons toward certain entities in the game to be unrealistic. For instance, if you launch a shell and it hits next to an infantry unit some players expect a one hit kill. Others prefer tank damage to be modified so that it only does like 50% damage or something. On the other hand some people expect if you hit next to a MAX unit it would do a lot of damage. I'm more in the group that prefers balancing for gameplay reasons, not realism. That means if a tank is killing infantry too much in the game then lower the damage to take away the incentive of the perceived "easy kill".

Originally Posted by Traak

What if the AI rounds had the same effect as the OLD PS tank rounds against infantry, not some uber-frag-grenade, but just the same splash, but the AV had almost zero effect unless a direct hit was scored?

That would be more sensible, though I'd just leave that up to the AV round. That is having an AV round that one hits with a direct hit and does say small AOE damage is sensible. I just don't want to see a tank launch a round through a door and wipe out a whole squad with AOE. The tanks main gun should focus on fighting other armor essentially. Let the secondary guns and other vehicles deal with infantry.

[FIREk]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

That is having an AV round that one hits with a direct hit and does say small AOE damage is sensible. I just don't want to see a tank launch a round through a door and wipe out a whole squad with AOE. The tanks main gun should focus on fighting other armor essentially. Let the secondary guns and other vehicles deal with infantry.

The idea is for the AV round to be kinetic only, just like the actual APFSDS rounds (more commonly known simply as "Sabot" rounds).

It's nothing revolutionary, but it adds an extra layer to tank warfare - having to choose between superior infantry ganking, and superior, easier tank/Sunderer kills.

Tank shells in PS1 and Battlefield are devastating enough against infantry, and we don't want the AI/anti-light-vehicle rounds to be even a bit more powerful.

[Atuday]

The bonus to forcing a tank to switch between anti armor and anti infantry rounds is that if you are infantry you may live for a few more seconds before turning to red paste. Tanks are powerful against infantry because that is what they are for. A big armored monster of death tends to make smaller people run away. The reason tanks are to kill other tanks is because they have so little to fear from infantry and I think that element of "OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT A TANK RUN!!!!!" needs to be kept in the game.

[FIREk]

I'm afraid that I can't discuss this properly, as I have no idea how tanks are used in actual modern warfare. Last time I read about this was a few years ago and the trend was to use tanks as mobile cover for infantry. I think the military-oriented magazine used a phrase like "moving bunkers".

Therefore I don't know if tanks still have that psychological aspect of being "HOLYSHITTANKS!". Especially if they have to worry about collateral damage and civilians and stuff.

But I digress. The most important thing is that we're talking about a game. Tanks can't be ass-blastingly powerful, because that makes them unbalanced. Especially if nothing is there to make them as rare as in real battlezones.
A tank in a game will give advantages, at the cost of some disadvantages. Since it's being run on mechanics that are geared towards balance, an in-game tank will never strike fear into anyone - it will only be an obstacle to blow up or avoid.

[Talek Krell]

If they maintain their current route with the secondary weapons, then giving the main cannon an AI fire mode would probably overlap too much with the intended purpose of the gunner turret.