Brain candy.

[Piper]

Mmmm....braaaiiinzzz. Sorry er.....left zombie mode on.

As much as them ensuring there is player retention within the first session of the new player experience is required (though frankly making a manual and expecting people to read it really should be sufficient and sod hiring people to make video tutorials) what about retention down the road? Retention because the game is about significantly more than individuals fragging other individuals to earn pointz, to win prizez.

Planetside 2 is and always will be "casual" (not quite the right word, but it'll do) friendly. Because it's an FPS. It doesn't really get much more simple than an FPS when all is said and done. Loft virtual weapon, point at avatar that isn't on your team, press mouse button. Moreover Ps1 was, at its time in 03, a different kind of MMO frankly....here's why, this is an old copy 'n' paste from the beta forums.



--Level didn't matter. All the MMO games with Pvp up till Ps1, level mattered. BR was important, but a newbie out of the box could kill a Br20 if they were simply playing better.
--Gear didn't really matter, no +5 Beamers of d00d-slaying in this game nothankyou.
--You could be a new player that made a difference to the big team game, see above.
--You could solo and still make a difference to the big team. Didn't have to play in a squad, or an outfit, but your contribution could still win a base for the empire (it had scale like nothing else in 03 and still in theory to this day in a way). Maybe your AMS provided the spawn point, your router beacon dropped the gen, your last second charge at the CC stopped the enemy securing.
--You could play for a short session and still make a difference. You could be online for quarter of an hour and be instrumental in a base cap'.
--Or you could play for longer and see a different type of game maybe, you could help win a continent, you could log in/out of the course of a weekend day and see a global campaign ebb and flow and do what you liked to help towards it.
--It was all PvP, all the time. No whack-a-mole leveling, no gear grind masquerading as "content".
--At the start of the game, 03-04 it properly locked us into our teams. We couldn't swap them, we played for one team and there was, like DaoC, a sense of "team pride" (silly concept perhaps you might think but then look at team sports).
--It rewarding playing well and punished playing badly, at various levels of scale, the individual the squad/outfit/empire. You might think that's a stupid to say, all games do that, but the tendency after the game that Blizzard made in 2004 we shan't name has been to reward players even when they /fail.
--It didn't confuse what gaming is (or is that was now? about), competition, co-operation and not collecting pixel fluff on a virtual account you don't own.
--It was multi-layered in its complexity. If all you wanted to do was log in and frag people, you could do that. If you wanted to play in a squad, you could do that, if you wanted to help your empire out, you could do that, if you wanted to lead a continent via command channels, you could do that, if you wanted to wrangle with other commanders about the global game and play RTS, you could do that.
--The complexity was opt-in. If you didn't want to do any of the above, you could sit in Sanc and goof about.


Ps2 is, so far, dumber than a sack full of nails. Now, I'm no wocket scientist but neither am I a complete dullard. As I expect most of the people who will play Ps2 are. You can infer that everyone taking part will have been subject to a reasonable standard of education (because they have access to a fairly substantial computer) which should include quite a lot of common sense problem solving faculties.

The game drowns us in so much information that it is endangering team play, between spotting and the oodles of info' the map throws at us, what use scouting, what use acquiring information, transmitting it to others and it being disseminated back further to others again? The game is lacking, at the moment many of what were fairly basic RTS like elements that Ps1 had (these were arguably what a lot of people stuck about for for nine years, not the dubious FPS qualities of the game) and the tools players had to engage in them.

Is "Brain candy" a feature others would like to see shoe-horned into the game at the earliest opportunity? I realise that simply having more cont's will finally open up the RTS like elements of the game (that folks will have to begin to decide where to send elements of the empires overall pop) but it should be only the start?

Logistics, scouting (nerfing the amount of information we all have access to?), communications and plain more things to do (or variety, LLUs, lattice cutting, drains, cave mod running/stealing type things all missing) all need some focusing on and beefing up. It won't matter how many layers of this are added in either, those who want a casual experience will always have it in Ps2, they can pop on and frag d00ds without having to get involved in any of it if they don't wish to.

[Mechzz]

Yup. This has been the deepest of some of the loudest vets imo. The stripping out of the things that lifted PS1 out of the ordinary. I'm hopeful that having conts 4, 5 and 6 will help the RTS elements along and get us closer to what PS1 provided.

My big hope for something that will take PS2 BEYOND PS1 is the resource system. It is woeful at the moment, since it's simply another timer, but I hope that Smed, with his preference for EvE will grab the bull by the horns and turn resources into a physical thing, something in a silo, that we need to deliver to the silo and defend before we can use it. Something our enemies could destroy in a raid. In other words, something worth fighting over.

[Piper]

Originally Posted by Mechzz

My big hope for something that will take PS2 BEYOND PS1 is the resource system. It is woeful at the moment, since it's simply another timer, but I hope that Smed, with his preference for EvE will grab the bull by the horns and turn resources into a physical thing, something in a silo, that we need to deliver to the silo and defend before we can use it. Something our enemies could destroy in a raid. In other words, something worth fighting over.

I'll just leave this here as well then. Another shameless C&P from beta forums.


Right now resources are important to each individual, run out of them you can't pull vehicles or get extra 'nades etc. Fine....okay, but this is a team game, and in theory a pretty big team. If they can get three cont's at launch, and pack them out it's 2k of people in just one team. I think resources should matter at a bigger level, and that it perhaps isn't that tricky at a design level to get them mattering.

Right, so first of all I need to explain the A.N.T. to people who never played Planetside 1. Each base in Planetside had an energy (called NTU's) level, as the base self repaired its systems (defense turrets, spawn tubes, generator) the power levels of the base would drop. Everyone, friend or foe, could see the % level of NTU for any base on the map. One tictac for "back hacking" was to "drain" a base, cause it damage and empty the NTU levels to 0%. When the base went "neutral" it could be hacked by the enemy. Also prolonged base fights could end if the defenders couldn't get extra NTU into the base......which is where the A.N.T came in.



There is a happy ANT doing what it does, refilling the NTU silo. The ANT was a universal single person, unarmed vehicle. Everyone could pull one, fill it up at a warpgate bubble and take them to where they were needed, they also fitted in the back of a Galaxy and could be dropped into "hot" bases. So anyway, it was just another element of support play and "smart" play for attackers to deny the enemy access to NTU in general.


Right so...er....Planetside 2 and making resources matter to the empire.

--Each and every base and facility has it's own personal, to the base that is, "stockpile" of each of three resource types that cover our use of vehicles and consumables.
--Additionally, just as bases do now each base also generates a type of resource and firstly fills up its own stockpile for that type quite quickly, once it has capped its own stockpile out then the additional extra resources are shunted about through any hex's the base/facility is in contact with, hex adjacency style. Or perhaps it could shunt the additional points back to the warpgate(s) the empire controls (if connected to it) and the warpgate shunts them back out across the entire network of bases.
--Every time a player pulls a vehicle or consumable from a base/facility in addition to it costing the individual player resources from their personal stockpile it also removes them from the bases stockpile.
--The warpgate(s) controlled by the empires can have HUGE stockpiles, much larger than any base at all.
--We introduce the new ANT, the er....R.T.V. (Resource transport vehicle? ). This little fella can pick up resources from the warpgate or any base and transport them between bases, even to hex "cut off" ones behind the lines, perhaps with the help of the Galaxys transport bay.
--Just like in PS1, abandoned enemy R.T.V.'s could be advanced hacked (Infil's) and stolen.
--You could then have gameplay revolving around stealing resources from the enemy. Driving up (or being dropped out of the back of a Gal) to the enemies WG and trying to help yourself to their stuff.
--Orbital strikes could be limited (in the future when more people have them) if they also drain resources from a base as well an individual.

[Sunrock]

Funny word... brain candy..

But yes I want brain candy



But seriously though. Yes I think PS2 is missing a more complex strategy game play element that stretch over more then just capture base X. If the game does not evolve in that direction and stay as shallow as it is now I don't think it will be able to keep me interested for more then 4-6 months.

[Piper]

Originally Posted by Sunrock

Where did you get a picture of my mother-in-law?

[Mechzz]

Originally Posted by Piper

I'll just leave this here as well then. Another shameless C&P from beta forums.


Right now resources are important to each individual, run out of them you can't pull vehicles or get extra 'nades etc. Fine....okay, but this is a team game, and in theory a pretty big team. If they can get three cont's at launch, and pack them out it's 2k of people in just one team. I think resources should matter at a bigger level, and that it perhaps isn't that tricky at a design level to get them mattering.

Right, so first of all I need to explain the A.N.T. to people who never played Planetside 1. Each base in Planetside had an energy (called NTU's) level, as the base self repaired its systems (defense turrets, spawn tubes, generator) the power levels of the base would drop. Everyone, friend or foe, could see the % level of NTU for any base on the map. One tictac for "back hacking" was to "drain" a base, cause it damage and empty the NTU levels to 0%. When the base went "neutral" it could be hacked by the enemy. Also prolonged base fights could end if the defenders couldn't get extra NTU into the base......which is where the A.N.T came in.



There is a happy ANT doing what it does, refilling the NTU silo. The ANT was a universal single person, unarmed vehicle. Everyone could pull one, fill it up at a warpgate bubble and take them to where they were needed, they also fitted in the back of a Galaxy and could be dropped into "hot" bases. So anyway, it was just another element of support play and "smart" play for attackers to deny the enemy access to NTU in general.


Right so...er....Planetside 2 and making resources matter to the empire.

--Each and every base and facility has it's own personal, to the base that is, "stockpile" of each of three resource types that cover our use of vehicles and consumables.
--Additionally, just as bases do now each base also generates a type of resource and firstly fills up its own stockpile for that type quite quickly, once it has capped its own stockpile out then the additional extra resources are shunted about through any hex's the base/facility is in contact with, hex adjacency style. Or perhaps it could shunt the additional points back to the warpgate(s) the empire controls (if connected to it) and the warpgate shunts them back out across the entire network of bases.
--Every time a player pulls a vehicle or consumable from a base/facility in addition to it costing the individual player resources from their personal stockpile it also removes them from the bases stockpile.
--The warpgate(s) controlled by the empires can have HUGE stockpiles, much larger than any base at all.
--We introduce the new ANT, the er....R.T.V. (Resource transport vehicle? ). This little fella can pick up resources from the warpgate or any base and transport them between bases, even to hex "cut off" ones behind the lines, perhaps with the help of the Galaxys transport bay.
--Just like in PS1, abandoned enemy R.T.V.'s could be advanced hacked (Infil's) and stolen.
--You could then have gameplay revolving around stealing resources from the enemy. Driving up (or being dropped out of the back of a Gal) to the enemies WG and trying to help yourself to their stuff.
--Orbital strikes could be limited (in the future when more people have them) if they also drain resources from a base as well an individual.

Interesting. If you read my copy/paste below, you'll see a fair level of similarity in our ideas on how to make resources more fun. If they get it right (right = resources are fun for people interested in them, but don't get in the way of players who just want to run around shooting other players) AND couple it with RTS/contintental domination then they might just end up with a game that has the same or better replay value as PS1.

Here's my resource post:

Where Next With Resources?
On October 13th, resource mechanics were changed so that a single resource is used for each of the categories “infantry”, “mechanised” and “aerospace”. This was done to make the impact of resource loss clearer and sharper. If you lose your mechanised resource, then you can’t pull Lightnings, MBTs or Sunderers, etc.
While this does help focus us on the value of resources, I still really feel that the basic resource mechanic does not add enough to the gameplay to make it a worthwhile addition. Watching your resources tick up is about as exciting as watching a cooldown timer count down before you can pull your next vehicle. For me, it just doesn’t require enough involvement from the player, it’s too passive.

So what to do about it? Well, I think there are only 2 possible ways to go from here. Either get rid of the resource system or make it one where the players are more actively involved in gaining resources. My own preference is to improve the resource system so that it becomes an integral part of the game, enabling new “things to do” in the game that we wouldn’t have otherwise. I also believe the Devs want resources to be individual to the player, and my proposal keeps this in mind. It is also important that the resource system does not become a burden on those who are not interested in it, and I’ve tried to keep that in mind as well by keeping the system flexible and personal while still enabling new types of team play. My overall goal is to encourage a more mature attitude to resources, as seen in Eve, but missing out as much of the grind as possible. So here’s my idea:

Make resources a physical thing, something that the player has in inventory with them or can leave (deposit) at bases or in the warp gate. Resources would be gained at the same passive rate as they are now, dependent on territory holding, but they would be delivered first to the player’s inventory. The delivered resources cannot be used directly but must first be deposited to a local account using an equipment terminal in any base. Each deposit would be separate, unique to the place where it was deposited.
So at its most basic it works like this:

1. Player has resources added to their personal inventory every tick up to the half of the main resource cap.
2. When the player dies, or returns to a base, resources can be deposited at that base. The resources are stored there until used. (This would be a simple “deposit” button for each resource on the respawn and equipment terminal screens). Deposits can only be made up to the resource cap.
3. When purchasing anything that requires resources, the total available amount of resources across all deposits (except those in the warp gate) is available, up to the resource cap. Closer deposits are consumed first, but only equipment spawned in the warp gate can use the warp gate resource stockpile, see below for how this helps build the resource gameplay mechanics.
4. If your empire loses a base where your resources are stored then you lose the resources stored there.
5. Deposits at the warp gate can only be made by visiting the warp gate, not by spawning there. Any personal resources will be lost if you spawn at the warp gate. You will be warned you will lose any not-yet-deposited resources if you choose to redeploy to the warp gate. The resource level in the warp gate cannot go below the cost of a flash, so a player always has transport available, but other resources can go down to zero in the warp gate unless they are maintained.

So what does this do for gameplay? It ensures you have to first get resources in your hands and you then have to deposit them to make them useful. If you did nothing other than deposit resources every time you spawned, you could play the game without even bothering about resources. I think this is important because there will always be some portion of the player base that doesn’t want to bother with things like resources, they just want to shoot people and blow stuff up.

But consider the potential beyond that once resources are made physical. Remember, they are only useable when the base you deposited them in is owned by your empire. So if you’re VS and you make a deposit in Dahaka then you’ll only have those resources for as long as the VS hold Dahaka. But you may need to deposit them to avoid wasting them above your personal inventory cap. This alone adds a level of strategy to the game that we don’t have now. Where do I store my resources? Well, the safest place is your empire warp gate, since that can never be capped, but you can only make a deposit in the warp gate by travelling to the warp gate (not redeploying). So then resources become a risk/reward thing where if you’re a safety-first player you may head back to the warp gate to drop off resources but if you just want to run and gun you may prefer a riskier local deposit. A “middle way” strategy would be to hold on to them until you spawn at a big base your faction usually holds. This alone adds real player choice, something we currently don’t have with resources.

If you’re attacking a base and capture it, you get a resource bonus that’s all the enemy resources stored in the base shared out amongst the players in that base when the cap goes through – definitely worth fighting for. These would be deposited in the captured base up to the resource cap for your immediate use.

And there’s more!

What I’ve described so far is very individual-centric, but the “physical resources” mechanic can also be used to foster team play. Let’s add a “resource runner” cert to the Sunderer and Galaxy which allows a player to collect resource deposits from remote stations and take them back for safe keeping at the warp gate. The resource runner would need to be given permission before they could pick up a player’s resources. For outfits, there are players who specialise in support roles, so they could be designated resource runners and allowed to pick up resources for the outfit whenever they want. But if they lose resources by doing solo runs the permission could be revoked, which in turn encourages them to create a mission that any outfit or random local players could choose to join.

Similarly, players not in an outfit could create a local resource runner mission in a remote base which any of the local players could opt into (getting auto-squadded in), allowing the resource runner to take their deposits and deliver them to the warp gate. The enemy would also be alerted via an “interceptor mission” once the resource runner is on the road. So now your squad has the mission to deliver those resources safely with potentially a ton of aircraft and tanks chasing you. If the Sundy gets destroyed the resources are shared among every enemy that hit the destroyed vehicle. This could be quite exciting, and a new twist on the ANT-runner scenario to keep the Vets who miss such things happy. It also gives a player with less play time something concrete to do other than just hoping to find a big fight, since a resource runner mission has a clear beginning and end.

So these mechanics encourage team play different than just capping the next base. Also, the fact that the warp gate only uses resources stored in the warp gate will encourage team play. No more Sunderers and Gals heading out empty, since players will want to save these important resources before getting to the fight and will look for a free ride. This will also be a big incentive for Gal and Sundy drivers to make resource runner missions so they can keep their warp gate resources stocked up (particularly Galaxy pilots I guess, since they can then make round trips to/from the warp gate for drop missions outbound and resource runner missions inbound)

And I saved the best to last - this proposal can also fix the “rich get richer” scenario. I propose that there be a very high limit to deposits in the warp gate (new players should be given 750 of each resource at the warp gate to get them started). That is a huge incentive to use a resource runner, or deliver your own resources to the warp gate. Because when you get gate-camped, you will have had the opportunity to build your own private stock pile that lets you keep fighting.

In fact, the possibilities are endless. I just thought, for example, that you could build a reputation in the game as a resource runner by having the game track total resources you’ve returned to the warp gate as well as total resources lost by your Sunderer being destroyed. Oh, and outfits could have outfit stockpiles in the warp gate, equal to the warp gate resource cap multiplied by the number of outfit members. Then, any outfit member could use that stockpile. This would really help Gal pilots and it would be very useful in that last stand when your empire is really getting beat up and needs a big outfit push. Oh, and warp gate stock piles could be available on every continent, making it easier to fight back on Esamir, for example.

TL;DR Deliver resources to a player’s personal inventory. Require the resources be deposited before they can be used. Resource deposits in a captured base are shared out amongst the winners. Resources can be delivered to the safety of the warp gate by Resource Runners (certed Sundy and Gal drivers) who either have outfit permission or create local auto-squadding missions to return resources to the warp gate for safe keeping. If the Sunderer gets destroyed, the resources are lost. Resource runner missions automatically create interceptor missions for the enemy empires.
That’s a lot of words, but the more I’ve written the more I see that making resources physical will add at least some of the “depth” we are currently missing in the game.
So, what other things could we do to make resources more of a real part of the game rather than just an obstacle?

[Piper]

Originally Posted by elfailo

Nobody's going to do "resource runs". It was hard enough getting someone to do ANT runs in PS1 because it was such a boring and mindless activity, and the only reason they were done at all was that people wanted to keep their Interlink farms alive.

Nobody in the first sentence and someone in the second....er.... I often see this point whenever the word ANT is brought up.

People did it in Ps1 who were happy to play the "empire" game. That noticed that the game was/is a team one. If it's a problem, reward the individual with XP that does it, significantly more than ANTing gave in Ps1.

If 2k+ of people together on one team can't organise some in it to sort out logistics they deserve to /fail and be punished, and all suffer, as individuals, as a result? That will get plenty of people doing it as well?

Still reading Mechzz.

[Mechzz]

Originally Posted by elfailo

The way to make money with video games these days is to avoid passive, forced-teamwork activities altogether - people simply get bored with them. It's terrible enough that you're reliant on the rest of your empire for your resources to begin with. Adding a mechanic like having to drive a truck across a hilly continent for half an hour in order to get tanks and aircraft will only make that aspect worse.

My post actually addresses that. The "easy mode" version is to simply deposit your resources at the first weapon terminal you visit.
I believe a lot of the target audience is not interested in this sort of thing for the reasons you mention, but I would still like to see resources be more than an extra cooldown timer.

[Piper]

Originally Posted by elfailo

The way to make money with video games these days is to avoid passive, forced-teamwork activities altogether - people simply get bored with them. It's terrible enough that you're reliant on the rest of your empire for your resources to begin with. Adding a mechanic like having to drive a truck across a hilly continent for half an hour in order to get tanks and aircraft will only make that aspect worse.

Forgive me for saying it then by why isn't Ps2 a 6k of people free-for all then? Or for that matter just a single player offline Duck-hunt game?

Why do people make outfits and play in squads if not for team-work for the grand team, the empire?

Why don't we remove the need to capture bases, because we're clearly being forced into doing it.

[velleity]

No one was happy to do ant runs. It was generally done by cr5s like myself who knew no one else would. And anting became a crap hole of passive aggression when 15 minute base drains were put in.

[Mechzz]

Originally Posted by elfailo

The reason that is the case has literally nothing to do with the fact that resource gain is automated.

Of course it's nothing to do with whether or not resource gain is automated. Some people just don't enjoy/appreciate extras like resources, that's clear and is recognised. No-one is trying to force anyone to do something they don't want to.

But what we have just now is plain daft. Resources that mean literally nothing up to the point where you don't have enough of them. Once you don't have enough, they are nothing more than an extra cooldown timer - watch them tick up until you can buy your ESF or MBT or whatever. Total tedium, adds precisely zero to the game.

So as I said in another post, either:
1. Get rid of them
2. Make base vehicles free but make sidegrading cost resources
3. do something meta-game ish, like I suggest in my copy/paste.

Or are you saying you like resources as they are?

[Piper]

Originally Posted by velleity

No one was happy to do ant runs. It was generally done by cr5s like myself who knew no one else would. And anting became a crap hole of passive aggression when 15 minute base drains were put in.

There we go again, "no one".

Really? I recall instances where lots of people were happy to see an ANT roll into a base. and being someone who did it at times, I was happy to see other people (on my team) happy.

Why have any support/team elements in game, let's get rid of the medic, that's pretty tedious. Repairing a Max is boring as hell. If I'm not constantly shooting a gun I must be bored, right?

Oddly enough there are a crud-ton of single player games that could fulfill us if that's all we want from Ps2?

[Mechzz]

Originally Posted by elfailo

No I am not and I agree with you there, but I don't have a clear cut solution for it either so I'm not going to pretend I hold the answer.

Resource-ANT-runs will only exacerbate the problem because nobody wants to do boring things, and it's completely unnecessary too (haven't you seen all the pipelines on the continents?). Take it or leave it, I'm not up for endless debates.

Yeah, me too, on the endless debates. Piper's post frames the problem quite well, I think. But the levels of apathy surrounding resources are enormous. As you say, a chunk of the player base just doesn't care about them.

I would say, though, that you tend to express yourself in absolutes ("nobody" and "no one") when there clearly were some people who did run and enjoyed running ANTs or protecting them. I wasn't one of them, but I've read many posts along those lines. The real question is how far will the Devs go to cater to that group. So far the answer seems to be "not very far".

[Piper]

Originally Posted by Mechzz

I would say, though, that you tend to express yourself in absolutes ("nobody" and "no one") when there clearly were some people who did run and enjoyed running ANTs or protecting them. I wasn't one of them, but I've read many posts along those lines. The real question is how far will the Devs go to cater to that group. So far the answer seems to be "not very far".

As I said in the OP. It would all be opt-in? Clearly there are lots of people who don't want to do it, won't find it enjoyable (ANT running to bases where people who set up fake drains and left was boring I won't disagree, but conversely actually getting one into a swamped CY could be quite fun and could require a squad/outfit playing together to achieve it, as would resource "stealing" in 2 if designed well) but...

...they (SoE) already have a game that is...dumb as a sack full of nails to enjoy, folks can log in and frag d00ds all day long if that's all they want to do.

Where are the game aspects for people who would like a little more to the game, as it is currently pretty much only about character progression, gaining certs to get different guns to get more certs...etc...etc, and not much else.

Logistics is only one part of it of course, proper RTS elements of acquiring information and someone deciding what to do with it and where to send portions of players is huge other one that, at the moment, is...lackluster for a game with a 2 after its name.

[Mechzz]

Originally Posted by Piper

As I said in the OP. It would all be opt-in? Clearly there are lots of people who don't want to do it, won't find it enjoyable (ANT running to bases where people who set up fake drains and left was boring I won't disagree, but conversely actually getting one into a swamped CY could be quite fun and could require a squad/outfit playing together to achieve it, as would resource "stealing" in 2 if designed well) but...

...they (SoE) already have a game that is...dumb as a sack full of nails to enjoy, folks can log in and frag d00ds all day long if that's all they want to do.

Where are the game aspects for people who would like a little more to the game, as it is currently pretty much only about character progression, gaining certs to get different guns to get more certs...etc...etc, and not much else.

Logistics is only one part of it of course, proper RTS elements of acquiring information and someone deciding what to do with it and where to send portions of players is huge other that at the moment is...lackluster for a game with a 2 after its name.

Yup. Agree 100% with this. Smed has hinted at a player economy (a la Eve?) but I'll need to see that before I believe it. I don't think PS2 will ever have dedicated resource gatherers, the demographic is way different Eve, but then again, what do I know?

I think things along the lines of Ants, or something different like you or I suggested, are the best we can hope for.