Improvement: Tank Gameplay/Balance to Lightning/MBT's

[Aesir]

So here is my concept Idea how Tanks should work in the game. I split it up into the basic concept and going into more details later, since it will be a long read.

The basic Concept
Change Lightnings by giving them a Secondary AI weapon, divide the current 2-seated MBT's into 2 different Battle Tanks, meaning we will have 3 Tanks to chose from. Two with 1 seat and one with 3 seats.

Those two Battle Tanks should share the same hull model, which is the one from the old MBT's. They also should share Mainguns options and most upgrade cert's.

The new MBT will be 1-seat with an utility option to go for 2-seat and should feel like a reward to own a Tech Plant. The Assault Battle Tank(ABT) should also require a Techplant and will be the dedicated 3-seated Battle Tank.

(I rather have the old PS1 system with only Lightning and a mandatory Driver/Gunner System for MBT's, but SOE stated that this will never happen, so this is a middle-ground solution)

Add in one more upgrade slot for Vehicles, leaving us with Performance, Defense, Utility and Special. Allow more synergy between them, more empire specific options but also Nanite Systems variation that can be added both to the Lightning and the BT's.

More different weapons and weapon systems. Like Launchers for the Lightning, possible AA mainguns for BT's. More choices in Weapon upgrades, less oneway paths in Weapon upgrade slots(like max ammo).

A better, streamlined Vehicle customization system so we get more side grade options to chose from, Main and Secondary's that fulfill the same role should have options to. There should be Brawler maingun or a Sniper maingun.(Hell, I'm asking you to take more of my money for more different guns!)

Slightly higher resource costs or other mechanics to reduce prolonged spam.

More means to communicate with the driver/gunners within a Vehicle. An Vehicle Intercom would be awesome.

Specific changes per Vehicle

The Lightning(250 resources)
Like it currently stands it is a highly specialized Vehicle depending on the Maingun you give it, which is ok and the power those weapons currently hold is good in their special roles.

But right now in most situations the current MBT's are just way better to fulfill the exact same role. Only with AA and medium range HE spaming being the exception.

Giving the Lightning some basic means in to fend of close Infantry will boost it's combat value. The secondary's however should be AI only, meaning things like the Kobalt, C85 Modified or the old Beta AI Vulcan. They should also have no or very little splash and should not damage armored Vehicles.(It's a possibility for empire specific weapons)

This way you give Lightning drivers more options, without giving a single player to much power.

The old PlanetSide Next concept art of the Lightning would make a prime example of what I'm talking about.

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/20...ki-d58wdvk.jpg

The Main Battle Tank(1-seat, 275 resources, needs Tech)
Currently the MBT's are mainly driven solo, but the concept behind them was that you do have a Gunner with you for the Secondary Weapon. They should still feel like a reward for having access to a Tech Plant for everybody, even the solo players but should not be to strong. The level were current MBT's stand if only operated by 1 Player is more or less ok with some minor tweaking.

In order to balance MBT's as a second option to the Lightning they need to lose the Secondary gunner seat and maybe some health(debatable how much or even if). But in order to balance them but also differentiate them from the changed Lightning they need a secondary weapon to switch to that feels different.

My suggestion is that generally all Battle Tank Turrets(Mainguns) for the MBT and ABT should be shared and should be able to swap between a Primary and a Secondary role. So the MBT, though driven solo has either 2 ammo types to switch between or a separate weapon system that is completely different from the Lightnings secondary AI.

Primary Ammo/Weapon Systems should be highly specialized in their role, meaning HE, AP, Canister, Twin 40mm FLAK's and the likes that excel very good at one thing only.

Secondary Ammo/Weapon Systems should be more generalized in their role, meaning HEAT, HESH and the likes that excel good in taking out more than one target type but are not the best option.

Switching between ammo types/Weapon Systems should not be instant for the Battle Tanks, it should take ~3,5-7 seconds to switch.

If it is a ammo type there should be unload cycle of 2seconds+reloadtime but mainguns with an ammo type should be able to select the next ammo type loaded. So that you either can force the unload+reload by double tapping "1""2" or select the next ammo type loaded after firing by single pressing "1""2".

This forces MBT's more into a medium range position, while Lightnings are more close range because they have the mobility and weapons to engage closer Infantry.

The power of the weapons is more or less balanced right now if we would compare the MBT's with the Lightning.

The Vanguard would still have a higher initial burst but lower dps compared the Python series of guns, while being less agile but having more effective health.

The Prowler would still have the higher firepower but lower range compared to the Python series of guns, while both tanks are similar in armor and agility, but the Lightning has the higher end speed.

The Magrider and Lightning guns are very similar in firepower compared to the Python series of guns, while the Magrider still has it's unique strafing ability against a Lightning with turret.

MBT's would than be like they are now, a more supportive weapon platform that needs close Infantry support.

Those changes would allow a fluent transition from the current system and my suggestions by making those “new” solo MBT's share all the cert's, model assets and Mainguns we had up until now.

And you upgrade both your solo MBT and ABT at the same time!

Again, the PlanetSide Next concept art allows for some visual meaning. Those twin canons could be a possible AA FLAK Primary, while the Maingun only is able to fire HEAT and is the Secondary.

http://th08.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/...ki-d58wezm.jpg

The Assault Battle Tank(3-seats, 450-500 resources, needs Tech)
A 3-men setup seems to be the best option to allow for more Tanks to “stack”. Which right now is their biggest issue, in to big battles those 15+ Tank trains we have right now only hinder themselves. This Tank should have around 5000 health.

The Driver(F1 position) should have access to a pure AI weapon(Kobalt and the likes) mounted on a traversal-able mount, placed on the Main turret.

Allowing the Driver to see 360° but also defend his Vehicle against close Infantry or allowing the driver to purely concentrate on using the terrain to his advantage in a Tank vs Tank battle.

The Maingunner(F2 position) should have access to the exact same maingun/weapon system as the solo MBT with the addition of better basic stabilization and a higher rate of fire(5-15%). So he/she should be able to also swap between ammo or weapon systems under the same rules as the MBT does. The stabilization is there that the driver can more actively assist by dodging enemy fire.

The Secondarygunner(F3 position) should have access to the current Secondary's like we have them, but should be mounted on the center point of the Main turret's top so that turning the Main Turret does not affect the Secondary Weapon. Again add some basic stabilization. Maybe also add the option for the Secondary weapon to swap ammo, like putting 85mm Canister shells into the ML85 Enforcer, again under the same reload cycle restriction as for the Main Guns.

And like mentioned before the ABT and MBT should share upgrade certs and Mainguns, for both a smooth transition between the new and the old system, but also giving Drivers that invest certs into their Vehicle to solo drive it when they want to lonewolf.

Those dedicated ABT's fully gunned or only 2/3 are not directly more powerful than let's say 2-3 Lightning's or solo MBT's. Keeping all 3 options Viable.

The PlanetSide Next concept art of the Prowler would be a prime example again, since it features 3 turret weapons. This concept can easily be adapted into the current models of both the Prowler and the Vanguard.

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/20...ki-d58wkcm.jpg

It is also possible to easily turn the Magrider into this 3-men system by making it's currently static turret traversal-able. The driver should be able to swap on a button press between nose mounted AI weapon with mouse control or turret mode with restricted movement(WASD only).




General upgrade Changes
Tanks need 4 upgrade slot's, those should be Performance, Defense, Utility and Special. Those upgrade slots should synergies with each other and open the option to change the role of certain Vehicles entirely, supporting the choices in Main weapon's.

Defense should change the aspects of protection, mobility and fire on the move capabilities. There should be several Armor upgrades that reduce incoming damage to more than one side but also slow the tank down/make it's less maneuverable/reduce fire on the move capability. But there should also be upgrades that leave armor protection as it is or even reduce it but also reduce weight, making the tank more maneuverable and increase fire on the move.

Performance should have more impact on the characteristics of the Tank. Meaning a smoother running suspension should increase handling and fire on the move drastically if the suspension can handle the load, while a Heavy suspension should reduce the strain of more heavy protection on the tank but reduce fire on the move.

So Defense and Performance should work together to make it possible to have a more slower but heavier armored build, while also allowing the option to go for a more mobile build that is more about dodging enemy fire. Or you go for a balanced build that is semi good at both aspects.

Utility should grant you more by combining more than one change to the vehicle or granting powerful unique passive abilities. As a few example:

Advanced Systems = Nanite Repairs + Automated fire suppression(Your Vehicle does not get the dot and movement restriction at critical health).

Sophisticated Gun Sights = A laser range finder that shows the gunners how far the target is away from them.

Air Radar = Shows enemy Aircrafts within 300m range, while also showing exact distances to gunners how far a spotted enemy Aircraft is.

Telescopic Cargo bin = Increases maximum ammo count, resupplies close by Infantry, gives 1-2 Player/s a rumble seat behind the turret.

Night Fighting gear = Strongly increased render distance on Thermal Optics.

The Special slot should contain the things that currently are the no brainer abilities. Empire specifics, Smoke, Flares, role changers like Arty mode and so on.

More options for those would be very good, there should be more choice on empire specifics but also Nanite Systems variation that can be fitted to all of them.

Some suggestions for Nanite System variations that could be fitted to both the Lightning and the BT's:

Nanite Systems Reactive Armor = Blocks a certain amount of damage to either front, top or the sides. They should regenerate every 30-60 seconds.

Nanite Systems ECCM with Caf-Flares = Like the current IR smoke is, ECCM fit's since it makes you not lockable for a set duration.

Nanite Systems IR Smoke Decoys = Similar to the current IR Smoke but has a magazine size and limited ammo count, it also only has a 30-50% chance to fool a missile, but you can throw 6-10 of them out in a short succession and than hit a 45-60 seconds reload, while also only having 1-2 reserve magazines.

General Weapon Changes
Those should have more characteristics, like turret rotation, loadable ammo, gun elevation/depression, projectile speed, bullet drop, damage, loading system and possible upgrades. Also, there should be more upgrade options to.

The different weapons that fulfill the same role should favor different play styles. If we would take the current 3 turrets available to a Vanguard which are Titan AP, HEAT and HE.

With the ability to just swap ammo they no longer are only one ammo type and thus are multirole, so the name would be misleading. But they have 3 very different projectile properties, meant for different ranges.

Vanguard 150mm Titan(old HEAT) = A balanced maingun boosting a fearsome stopping power at the cost of fire rate. | Damage: HEAT 1750/AP 2000/HE 1300 | Reload: 4sec | balanced ballistics, turret rotation, stabilization, gundepression/elevation.

Vanguard 150mm Gaia(old AP) = A highpower maingun meant for long range firesupport. The bigger propellant charges and extended barrel strongly reduce the rate of fire and turret rotation. | Damage: HEAT 1750/AP 2000/HE 1300 | Reload: 4,5sec | good ballistics, balanced stabilization, gundepression/elevation, slow turret rotation.

Vanguard 150mm Atlas(old HE) = Tests with changes to the barrel but also to the ammo on the Titan resulted into creation of the Atlas. It's higher rate of fire is achieved by making the barrel less prone to higher temperatures but also by shortening the propellant charge, making it a more close range orientated weapon. | Damage: HEAT 1750/AP 2000/HE 1300 | Reload: 3,5sec | good turret rotation, balanced stabilization, gundepression/elevation, bad ballistics.

So now we have 3 viable sidegrades that favor different play-styles. Without screwing the ones that already bought the current AP or HE. This of course should be done to all main guns for the Lightning and MBT's.

Ammo Types should set the standard main ammo used, while for BT's there should be an extra slot that contains the alternative ammo they can switch to. But that swappable ammo should not be a specialized ammo that is the best option in that field.

So things like AP, HE, Canister etc should never be a secondary ammo type you can switch to. Variations of HEAT or other general use ammo like HESH would make good choices.

More different ammo types, some of them special to a individual gun. AP, HEAT or HE but also new ammo types like HVAP(High Velocity AP = less damage better shell properties), Canister(if you want to turn your Lightning into a pure AI platform), HEAT-T(HEAT-Tandem = counter to ERA, meaning reactive Armor, at the cost of damage) and so on, I mean just browse through all the ammo types out there on real tanks or in the History of tank development to get inspired.

We need more different options for each customization slot on every weapon or weapon system. Max ammo alone is no choice it's a strait one way path.

Some examples instead of the old max ammo slot:

Automated Ammo Storage = 5% increase in Reload speed, but reduces the Maximum ammo capacity.

Regenerating Ammo Storage = regenerates a certain amount of ammo every 30 seconds, but strongly reduces the Maximum ammo capacity.

Safe Ammo Storage = Increases hitpoints of the Vehicle by 5% but also reduces Maximum ammo capacity. Does not stack with other hitpoint increasing upgrades.

Optimized Ammo Storage = 1% increase in Reload speed, while also granting more maximum ammo capacity, but not *** much as Improved Ammo Storage.

Optics and Sights should actually also have an impact on the looks and range markings on the weapon/weapon system, besides being Zoom/NV/Thermal.

The current range markers on the Vanguard HEAT has it's first marker at 550m, which is a range you do not fight in very often, I rather have markings within 150-500m, this should be an option, like scopes on rifles.

For reloading there should also be different choices that have more meaning behind them. For MG's/Autocannons the option to go for belt feed, meaning you fire directly from your ammo storage without a magazine, but an overheat mechanic. And similar major mechanic changes. There are already several good suggestions out there.

Some Numbers and examples

Lightning (Mobile support)
3000 Health
45% Frontal Armor(up to 35% using upgrades)
55% Top/Side Amor(up to 40% using upgrades)
100% Rear Armor
Stock weapons: 75mm Viper Primary / M12Kobalt Secondary

Solo Vanguard (Main Battle Tank)
3500-4000 Health
38% Frontal Armor(up to 33% using upgrades)
45% Top/Side Armor(up to 35% using upgrades)
120% Rear Armor
Stock weapons: 150mm Titan | AP Primary / HEAT Secondary

Dedicated Vanguard (Assault Battle Tank)
~5000 Health
38% Frontal Armor(up to 33% using upgrades)
45% Top/Side Armor(up to 35% using upgrades)
120% Rear Armor
Stock weapons:
Driver(F1 position): M12 Kobalt
Maingunner(F2 position): 150mm Titan | AP Primary/HEAT Secondary (stabilized and 5%-15% reload buff)
Secondarygunner(F3 position): M20 Basilisk | HE Primary/HVAP Secondary

(Changing health around for balance reasons should be easy if the numbers are to low or to high)

Conclusion
All those changes would make solo Tanks more balanced, while still keeping them viable. It would also add a rewarding system for fans of the old Driver/Gunner system with more stabilized guns, more options to engage different types of targets without making them to dominant. While also adding more customization and playerchoices that matter in general to all Tanks.

Sidenotes and extra ideas
Since the 1-seated MBT is not that much different in it's role to the Lightning, bigger differentiation between the two through possible upgrades/sidegrades, to shift the Lightning away from the poor mans 1-seat Tank role into the close support role.

Some examples would be:

Infantry Supplies, Infantry aoe heal and rearm - Utility slot.
Proximity Radar going out to 200m instead of 50m - Utility slot.
Proximity Repair(weaker than Sundy, should not stack) - Utility slot.

Aegis Generator, deploys the Lightning and projects a shield absorbing small arms fire around it - Defense slot.
Nanite Systems Chemical Laser, shoots down 1 guided missile every 30 seconds within X meters range - Defense slot.

Nanite Systems Remote Repair Tool, Primary weapon, repairs at the same rate as an Engineer with 10-15m range. - Primary weapon slot.

The Lightning also could be Airmobile and, like in PS1, fit inside a Galaxy.

[Baneblade]

In my estimation all MBTs should have 2x the hp they have now (2.5x for Vanguard), but cost twice the resources.

[Aesir]

Originally Posted by Baneblade

In my estimation all MBTs should have 2x the hp they have now (2.5x for Vanguard), but cost twice the resources.

Resources and timers have turned out to be no more than a annoyance , they are not limiting the numbers of something at all right now.

The Vanguard has the exact same health as all the other MBT's. Only It's armor value is higher. If you give all others x2 and the Vanguard x2.5 it would be totally op.

[Rothnang]

I didn't read the whole thing because there is a lot of stuff, but I definitely agree on lightnings having a coax cobalt. That would make AP shells a hell of a lot more useful, and by driving down the overdependence on exploding tank shells infantry will have a better time fighting these tanks despite them technically getting a buff against infantry, simply because cover actually works against bullets.

Also, resource cost and timers should never justify how strong a vehicle is. It doesn't help the game if vehicle players are on a constant roller-coaster between overpowered and unable to play with the units they like.

[Aesir]

Originally Posted by Rothnang

I didn't read the whole thing because there is a lot of stuff, but I definitely agree on lightnings having a coax cobalt. That would make AP shells a hell of a lot more useful, and by driving down the overdependence on exploding tank shells infantry will have a better time fighting these tanks despite them technically getting a buff against infantry, simply because cover actually works against bullets.

Also, resource cost and timers should never justify how strong a vehicle is. It doesn't help the game if vehicle players are on a constant roller-coaster between overpowered and unable to play with the units they like.

The coaxial MG I think is currently the most requested thing right now on the Lightning roadmap post.