You know what PS2 is missing?

[p0intman]

base design in ps2 is missing something for me (and im sure others). Because its really only something that ps1 guys will 'get', I'm going to explain it with a story.

One of the things CR5s in ps1 did, was act as a fast response group of sorts. Whenever any base was hacked that wasn't on the current empire primary cont or even the secondary cont (when we had those..), we were often the ones to arrive and deal with the situation so that maybe our empire could stay where it was and finish capping the cont.

Heres a map of Esamir, the better one:


I was responding to a particular hack at Ran Bio Lab, which for reference is the southwestern connection to the continent. It had been hacked by the TR through their connection to the continent via ishundar if i recall. Anyway, I dropped on top of it and looked around the courtyard for signs of an ams. None available, but then they are cloaked, so there shouldn't be any signs of them. There wasn't any CE (mines, turrets, etc) out, either.

So it was either a ghost hack or they weren't concerned about the courtyard. I had seen on my way in that the generator was at critical, so I dropped down from the roof and checked the gen room out. Nobody there, but there was a single boomer on the ground, it would have been used to kill the generator had I brought the spawns up first.

The small problem this presents is if I kill the boomer, they know where I am and can come straight for me. If I go bring the spawns up, they can kill the gen - without the gen, spawns don't work anyway. So, I shot the boomer and defused it. Hit surge (fast run mode) and run downstairs through the base. If you're fast enough in PS1, you can evade others shooting at you by literally dodging bullets.

On my way down, I saw six guys, and two maxes. I had figured it was a 50 percent chance of being a ghost and being serious. Six softies and two maxes: Serious. At this point, there are two choices to make. I can wait, and wait for my backup who was two minutes behind me, or I can sound the alarm and bring some pretty serious firepower in. It turns out, the second one could very well be *exactly* what they wanted. I saw eight guys in the stairs, and didn't check the control room. There could have been more there, but I didn't check and didn't have my command uplink device with me, no idea why.

Anyway, why would they want me to escalate? In order to draw forces off of another continent and tip the population in their balance. So, I chose to wait for the 4 or 5 others and hoped we could deal with fighting outnumbered. Sure enough, three minutes later a friendly cr5 mentions on command chat that he saw their ams and is taking it out. Turns out, they also had a router set up, which would have allowed for rapid respawning and returning to battle.

This effectively amplifies the amount of force you can have present. A minute after that, five guys drop at the back door and surge to the spawn room, we bring the spawn tubes up and barely resecure the base with a couple of minutes left on the 15 minute hack.

So, what about that is awesome you ask? I was able to evade 8+ enemies long enough to get a good idea of their actual strength and plans by being fast, sneaky and efficient. Through actual player skill, game knowledge and fast decision making, I and a handful of others fought above our belt and stopped what was going to become a massive headache for the rest of the empire.

That is, in essence, the bar that I hold planetside 2 gameplay up to as a standard it needs to achieve. Is it possible it can be achieved? Maybe. Probably not. In order to do so, we need to stop catering to those who don't want to actually use their brains ingame.

Mindless zerging, ghost capping, and deciding fights with numbers only need to all go out the window, though. That is pretty much the only real way forward, IMO.

No tldr. I wrote it, GO READ IT. If you ask for TLDR, you will be blocked.

[Dougnifico]

I think with a good lattice and more continents the same can still be done. Nothing is PS2's gameplay mechanics prevents this, only meta-game mechanics. It sadly could be a while, but I have faith that eventually the game will evolve and we can have the exciting adventures we all used to love.

Start a campaign, 10 continents in 2014! lol

[ChipMHazard]

So... You want to emulate an experience you had in Planetside 1 in Planetside 2?

Got any specific gameplay improvements in mind? Base design changes? Spawning changes? Spawn room changes?

From what I understand this is just a lenghty anecdote which in turn leads to the conclusion that numbers play a bigger part in PS2 than it did in PS1, that there's less focused gameplay to be found and there needs to be a reason to defend.
It might be prudent to wait for the new lattice-like system + base design changes to hit the live servers, and the new continents of course (When we finally get to see them that is).

Edit: There is one thing that will never change. Numbers will have a greater impact in certain situations than they did in PS1, simply because there are more players.

[Ghost Runner]

I was gonna say maps but this falls in with that thought.

[Qwan]

Gameplay like this is what got me playing PS1 so much, and having fun while doing it. Dont see much of this in PS2, playing PS2 has turned me into a cert and XP whore. each night I find my self at the crown selling my body for the next big cert or xp pay out. I feel so dirty afterwards, but its the only way to improve my weapons and be competative in the game. The sad thing is Ill be doing it again tonight, standing on the hill south of the crown, waiting for my target to presend itself, or running up the hill charging the crown dropping C4 on unsuspecting vehicles in my path. But this is what PS has come to, this is what it has evolved into. BR means nothing, and CR is totally non-existant. I enjoyed reading your post, it brought back to cool memories, but tonight ill be signing in and going back to the crown to whore for more certs and XP.

[Assist]

You can do almost all of that currently, there's just no reason too. The only thing is right now you really can't prevent that zerg from coming. There's no real preparation to taking a base right now, so the zerg has no reason to send a force ahead to scout or prepare a base.

The two main problems with that scenario in PS2 currently:
1 - No reason to prep a base. Zerg can do it just as effectively and there's just not enough reward for being the scout team in the front.
2 - Bases are too easy to take, with no reason to defend one once it already has a zerg in place. In your PS1 scenario, if they were going to go full out on that base, you had time to respond and get people there. There's no reason for people to leave their base that is about to capture and defend a base that you're losing. The player mentality is that the zerg will just take that base back once the one they're at captures, and unfortunately it's the more efficient way for the zerg to act currently. I don't think there needs to be more incentive for defending a base, but there needs to be way more incentive to re-take a base that is flipped already. The two ways of creating that are to either create penalties for losing bases (Players think 'oh shit, we're losing X benefi't sort of like the loss of all tech plants), or they could just add rewards for resecuring bases ('oh shit, we can get mad XP if we stop X faction from taking our base!')

I think this all goes back to resources and bases having no meaningful impact on game play.

[NewSith]

Originally Posted by Assist

You can do almost all of that currently, there's just no reason too. The only thing is right now you really can't prevent that zerg from coming. There's no real preparation to taking a base right now, so the zerg has no reason to send a force ahead to scout or prepare a base.

The two main problems with that scenario in PS2 currently:
1 - No reason to prep a base. Zerg can do it just as effectively and there's just not enough reward for being the scout team in the front.
2 - Bases are too easy to take, with no reason to defend one once it already has a zerg in place. In your PS1 scenario, if they were going to go full out on that base, you had time to respond and get people there. There's no reason for people to leave their base that is about to capture and defend a base that you're losing. The player mentality is that the zerg will just take that base back once the one they're at captures, and unfortunately it's the more efficient way for the zerg to act currently. I don't think there needs to be more incentive for defending a base, but there needs to be way more incentive to re-take a base that is flipped already. The two ways of creating that are to either create penalties for losing bases (Players think 'oh shit, we're losing X benefi't sort of like the loss of all tech plants), or they could just add rewards for resecuring bases ('oh shit, we can get mad XP if we stop X faction from taking our base!')

I think this all goes back to resources and bases having no meaningful impact on game play.

...and the reasons for that are so multiple, you can't even begin to say that there's something particular to blame.


Here're just a few things different from PS1 that affect the game in relation to what you describe:
CE pool size
Expendability of overpowered resources (as in material resources, not THE resources)
Base interior designs
Base outer designs
Weapon Balance
TTK
Lack of directional assistance
No full capture of continents (in a sence that the enemy has nowhere to spawn)
and there's much MUCH more...

[Assist]

Originally Posted by NewSith

...and the reasons for that are so multiple, you can't even begin to say that there's something particular to blame.


Here're just a few things different from PS1 that affect the game in relation to what you describe:
CE pool size
Expendability of overpowered resources (as in material resources, not THE resources)
Base interior designs
Base outer designs
Weapon Balance
TTK
Lack of directional assistance
No full capture of continents (in a sence that the enemy has nowhere to spawn)
and there's much MUCH more...

eh, I'd remove some from that list.
I'd take out interior base design, weapon balance, TTK, and directional assistance. Directional assistance doesn't fit on the list, as that goes with incentive to do something. It's one of the reasons I've never fully understood the implementation of the lattice-hex system, as it doesn't solve the problem of where the fight should go. There's nothing in the lattice-hex that prevents what currently is happening on live servers. But, the lattice-hex does pave the way for changes to everything we want, so I'm all for it.

Weapon balance is really good between factions, exceptionally good for a newer FPS IMO. Either way, it doesn't really effect anything in what Pointman described. TTK I personally have an issue with, but I think it could be overlooked by adding in some of the things to make Pointman's scenario possible. I don't think changing TTK will change how the game plays from a strategic/meta-game point of view.

I also don't have a problem with the interior design of bases. I think it's just too easy to get to the interior. Fights inside Amp stations are fairly good, the problem is as a defender it is very hard to stop an assault on an Amp station. Bio labs I feel the same way, the interior is fine, but the exterior is just.. bad. Rarely do people use the lower areas of the Bio Labs for defense, everything is just pushed inside.

[leifnielsen]

Originally Posted by p0intman

Because its really only something that ps1 guys will 'get'

^This.

It's been 10 years. I fully expect PS2 to eventually surpass the awesomeness that was PS1 by the end of it's lifetime. Hopefully a hell of a lot sooner.

[Ironside]

game lacks soul, it will never run on a linear path to ps1, higby and co will make sure of that,
i leave my brain at the door, jump in and rack a few kills up then log

[leifnielsen]

It'll get there. PS1 didn't start out perfect either.






Disclaimer: In the event that it does not get there, I will go into a blind rage and wear Higby's skin.

[ChipMHazard]

Indeed. Sadly it does seem like it will take quite some time for that to happen.


Dibs on the beard.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

So... You want to emulate an experience you had in Planetside 1 in Planetside 2?

More or less: being able to fight superior numbers through smart decision making and outwitting your opponent.

Currently, there are too many factors that mitigate that sort of thing for the numerical superior force.

Got any specific gameplay improvements in mind? Base design changes? Spawning changes? Spawn room changes?

I'd say a bucket load of changes, an all encompassing vision. This isn't just "one thing" you can change, it's a large combination of changes.

From what I understand this is just a lenghty anecdote which in turn leads to the conclusion that numbers play a bigger part in PS2 than it did in PS1, that there's less focused gameplay to be found and there needs to be a reason to defend.

Not really, it's a summation of factors and a scenario showcasing a sequence of events and the effect of decisions, base layout and TTK.

I'd even say third person, though he didn't mention it. Third person after all, allows you to observe and make decisions without giving your presence away. It showcases the current game is not big on stealth and timing your attack, the current game is far more immediate action oriented (due to being spotted as you try to spot the enemy, not being able to look around corners and thus finding yourself spotted, often before you spot the enemy), which is largely due to the lack of third person. The lack of observation makes for hasty and poor decisions, which favour the larger group.

It might be prudent to wait for the new lattice-like system + base design changes to hit the live servers, and the new continents of course (When we finally get to see them that is).

Those won't impact this.

Edit: There is one thing that will never change. Numbers will have a greater impact in certain situations than they did in PS1, simply because there are more players.

Wrote a long essay at first, but decided not to post it, it'd just be seen as a wall of text. Problem is it's simply too complex to describe in an alinea.

You're right that numbers in PS2 can lead to larger differences in group size and therefore leverage differences, but that's all the more reason to reduce the leverage of groups, rather than increase it.

Currently basically any of the PS2 systems independently strengthen groups. In combination, these effects get far more powerful. The end result is that the power of a group is not just a bit greater, but so great you can't overcome it.



We beat 10:1 odds or greater in PS1 by playing smart and using the systems in place to our advantage. In PS2 95% of those systems have been turned into convenience solutions, negating any advantage we could get over them and turning it into a group advantage.

Small groups simply can't compete by outwitting the enemy and taking time, patience, stealth and observation is irrelevant to current PS2 gameplay, simply because everything enforces and rewards AND punishes direct action. It's a lose-lose situation. It's why things like solo-MBTs + seat switching are far more impacting than they may appear to players who don't actually understand the different consequences of the design and the consequences of combining those things.

It's probably why we see so many rather naive players keep stepping up to defend current design. As P0intman already said, they just don't get it: they can't compare it to anything else. I'm also often under the impression that a lot of those players are in outfits that can field large numbers, or they're farmers of sorts. :/

[Crator]

What is needed to make this happen?

Something that can easily be interpreted on the map by the defender which tells them how long it will take to capture a location. *The test server has this now!

The capture time must give enough time for the defender to respond.

*Side Note: The distance between locations in PS2 is a lot less then it is in PS1. Therefore the pains of having to travel farther are almost non-existent in PS2. This, along with how fast current capture times are, doesn't give enough time for defenders to realize they need to get to the base to secure it. Also, like someone else already said, it really doesn't matter because it doesn't take that long to re-capture a location so you get this back and forth of capturing locations, especially towards the center of the map where the 3 empires meet. PS1 also had 1 to 2 choke-points on many of the bases where players HAD TO clash or gave combat engineers locations to put deployables to slow down enemy ground movements and give enough time for defenders to recognize and respond before the base was reached by the enemy.

Of course, the cloaked AMS and Router combo were great tools to use to sustain an attack on a base in this manner as well.

[Fenrys]

Casinos, with blackjack, and booze, and hookers (NC).