Cone of Fire

BladeRunner · 2003-04-15, 01:29 PM

Okay I've been thinking about this and I need some other input on it. I knew you guys would be the best to come to.

They call it a cone of fire.. Makes sense at first, but on 3rd or 4th thought, it's confusing me. I'm in beta, and I watch the circular marks going in and out, telling me how accurate I am. What confuses me is that, if indeed this is a cone, doesn't that mean that at closer ranges it should actually be more accurate than the indicators are telling?

What I mean is, let's say that you're looking at your screen while running with an assault rifle. The little indicators trace a circle that is, oh just for example, about 1.5 inches wide. So if this is the base of a cone thats tip is at the barrel of your gun, doesn't it seem logical that the cone must extend to some point, and that it is only that accuracy at the very end of the cone? Every point in between the base of the cone and tip would be a tighter accuracy.

So there are two ways that I think this could be answered in my head.

1) Yes, each gun has a cone of certain "height" for example the shotguns have a very small "height" because their indicators are true for a short range. Perhaps assault rifles' COF has more "height" and therefore even if the indicator is 1.5 inches wide while running, that's only at say, 20 meters. If the enemy is 2 meters from you, your gun will be more accurate than the indicators are saying.

OR

2) The cone's base is dynamic. That is, the indicator is true at all ranges because the "height" of the cone is defined as the distance between your barrel and whatever your crosshair is on. This would make sense too, but then it raises the question, why is it a cone at all? Wouldn't a "cylinder" of fire accomplish the same thing?

I hope this makes sense to someone who can help me out with this confusion. I thought about making some diagrams but they would probably be more confusing.

simba · 2003-04-15, 01:50 PM

hehe, hard 2 understand

havok · 2003-04-15, 02:03 PM

i understand what your saying but im a gimp and only in open beta so i havent gotten to play yet in theory with it being called a cone of fire id think that yes it would be tighter at closer distances but i could see it being dynamic too would suck if you were run straffing and a enemy straffed right in frong of your gun barrel totaly point blank but you missed because the ring of your cone was so wide from you running even though you couldnt possibly have missed him i know in games like rainbowsix distance played a part on your crosshairs when you were strafing id hope ps did too

Hezzy · 2003-04-15, 02:04 PM

umm, i dont understand any of that, and i got pretty bored and read about 3/4 of it. The cone would be hard to represent as a real cone, and it would prolly block out some of your LOS. The way the crosshairs work for me: big crosshairs = stop firing fool, you're not going to hit anything unless its standing about 2 cm away, small crosshairs = accurate, fire at will

. but thats just me

Knuckles · 2003-04-15, 02:07 PM

Ok - pure speculation here, since I'm not in beta (and also quite new to the game):

1. It IS a cone.
2. It IS dynamic.

Meaning:

The farther away You are the less likely You are to hit (if it ain't a real tight coned weapon You're packing). Also - if You have an automatic weapon, that cone will widen considerably if You are letting Your weapon 'rip'. That cone will widen even more if You are running/standing at the same time You are firing.

FYI: I've played Return to Castle Wolfenstein alot and there's an easy test You can do, to ensure Yourself that crouching, and controlled bursts, is the only way to go...

Face a wall. Start out by just standing there and emptying Your clip right into the wall. Watch the marks Your weapon makes on the wall (the spread/pattern). Slap a new clip into Your weapon and crouch. Again - let Your weapon 'rip' on full auto and watch the new pattern form. This time the formation is much tighter.

Presto: There's Your cone. There's Your hit probability.

.. Then again. I could be talking outta my ass. (I tend to do that after a bottle of good wine.

)

Chanfan · 2003-04-15, 02:12 PM

Think of it this way. If a soldier is quite far away from you, they might take up only 1/4". That's not much of that 1.5" circle - many shots that land in this circle will miss them.

But, if one pops out right in front of you, that 1.5" circle might fit on their chest. All the shots will hit them.

Hezzy · 2003-04-15, 02:13 PM

yeah, what the two smart guys said!

xuur · 2003-04-15, 02:21 PM

I understand the concept you're fighting with and hate to say I think its one of those elements that (realism-wise) had to take a back seat to game functionality.

Now, I do think the 'cone' is exactly that, but also must assume that the primary range to target is a major factor in the calculations being done.

I'm thinking (before I actually try it in beta) that the cone of fire is based on a rough 'zero point' calc done on the max range of the weapon as a base specification.

ie: a rifle zeroed to 200 yards will indeed be more 'globally' accurate at closer ranges, however the human factor of compensating for bullet rise and drop (short vs longer distance) and bullet arch of trajectory (not to mention other physics rules) will be major factors in an off-the-hip types of fire, especially if firing is done on the run.

So..with that. Yes, I think the cone is truly a cone. the circle probably represents the inherent accuracy of the weapon at 'zero point' and that you must as the 'human' side of the calc, compensate/take into account that your target may in fact not be at the 'zero point range' and therefore must be targeted by doing what would amount in RL as 'hold over' or 'hold under' and leading to arrive at final accuracy numbers....and thats not taking into account the speed of movement of the target and of the shooter themself, closing and opening ranges and unpredictable surface changes changing both the starting points for shooter and target.

translation: I believe its a 'ballpark' marker for on the fly human adjustments and shouldnt be used as/assumed to be an exact sighting method.

your mileage may vary.

nice post.

Matuse · 2003-04-15, 02:32 PM

You need to take an art class in drawing perspective

Close up, that circle is 1.5 inches across, someone standing close enough, and you cannot possibly miss them.

Expand that 1.5 inches out 200 yards, and it has become a circle 10 yards across.

Ever put your thumb and forefinger right up next to your eye, and pretend to squish people's heads? It is the same principle. Your fingers form the apex of a cone that terminates on the other person's head. It is 1/4 of an inch at your end, and 10-12 inches in diameter at the terminus. By looking further away, you can fit even larger objects in your "cone"...look down the street, and you'll fit a 12 foot tall semi truck between your fingertips.

The cone of fire works exactly like it does in reality, and like it is supposed to.

BladeRunner · 2003-04-15, 02:47 PM

Matuse I think you just cured me. I tried what you said, and indeed it is now making sense.

Thanks for the great replies guys.

SpartonX · 2003-04-15, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by Matuse
You need to take an art class in drawing perspective

Close up, that circle is 1.5 inches across, someone standing close enough, and you cannot possibly miss them.

Expand that 1.5 inches out 200 yards, and it has become a circle 10 yards across.

Ever put your thumb and forefinger right up next to your eye, and pretend to squish people's heads? It is the same principle. Your fingers form the apex of a cone that terminates on the other person's head. It is 1/4 of an inch at your end, and 10-12 inches in diameter at the terminus. By looking further away, you can fit even larger objects in your "cone"...look down the street, and you'll fit a 12 foot tall semi truck between your fingertips.

The cone of fire works exactly like it does in reality, and like it is supposed to.

WHAT HE SAID

Seer · 2003-04-15, 03:45 PM

I made this quick-like. Imagine you are shooting at some vanu rectangles in a rectangular hallway of finite length. For simplicity's sake, by the end of the hall, the base of your cone is a circle inscribed in the back wall. The rectangles are as tall as the hall and 1/4th of its width. The first one is located 1/4th of the distance to the end. The second is 3/4ths. Your COF is the dotted red circle in the second set of pictures. Eh..it works for me.

Prowler · 2003-04-15, 04:35 PM

wow thats sweet.

Destroyeron · 2003-04-15, 04:46 PM

Shoot. If it hits them, keep firing. That's my strategy.

JonnyK · 2003-04-15, 05:05 PM

ok i'm going to use counter-strike as a comparison since i know all of the weapon recoil things in cs. pretend recoil in cs in the cone of fire in planetside, in counterstrike if you hold down the trigger on the ak, your first 3-5 shots will go pretty good if a target is standing right in front of you, touching your body (as close as you can be to someone) but after those shots ( in cs ) your bullets will miss him because the "cof" isn't as it should be, the bullets will go far away to the upper left and right of the screen.

in real life if a gun barrel was against someone the bullets would hit no matter what. so i think that cs has a 2d COF wehre the bullets can go anywehre in that cone of fire, and they all act as straight shots. so there is not really any diagonal to any shots, when your recoil gets high, when the bullet comes out it's as if your gun was up wehre the bullet was and fired it straight, not as if it came out of your gun crooked.

so hopefully in planetside it has a 3d cone. so that if you are standing as close as possible to someone and hold down the trigger every bullet will hit them. the bullets would all actually start wherever your barrel is and go off in bad directions from that single starting point.

if anyone understands this please tell me if planetside is how i described it