World of Warcraft

[Warborn]

You never played UO, have you?

For a long time actually, but I never include UO when I talk about cheating. That game runs so much stuff client side rather than server side that it's always going to have loads of cheating. So, ammend my post to "everything but UO", because no MMORPG will ever let the client handle so much of the game.

The fact that it is RPG based means that their PvP system will suck. There's no way around it. There has NEVER been a PvP system (without incredibly heavy GM moderation) that worked in this style of game. There are a number of game genres where it works great (RTS, FPS, Turn based strategy, etc)...but RPGs are not one of them.

If you don't like RPG combat systems, you really shouldn't comment on them in that fashion. What I mean is that, as long as it's an MMORPG, there is no way around making the combat RPG-like -- and no, letting the players click to swing and turn it into some kind of action FPS won't work so long as it's an RPG. So there's no point in judging their PvP system, because there is apparently no way they are going to please you with it.

[2coasts]

I want MMORPG's to have pvp on for everyone all the time, and permadeath for every death. It would teach the fat fucks who play them to not be so careless and would induce heart attacks in their already clogged arteries when there character dies.

Most newbies would be killed off and looted, but some would make it through. Its like when an octupus has babies, they release 40,000 tiny little octapuses into the water, most are eaten, but the ones that bide their time and hide and grow eventually come back to kill everything they see.

btw Matuse, pvp worked in the Realm

[2coasts]

oh btw, non "twitch" combat systems, ie where u put through 5 orders and then just sit back and watch it play out are only put in games because the fat bastards who play them spend all day eating cheezy poofs and cant get their fat greasy fingers to the spacebar quickly enough.

[Destroyeron]

Spider got owned.

[Spider]

Matuse the SWG comment was not addresed to you... was a seperate comment..

And if the PvP of mmorpg's doesnt work how do you explain the thousands and thousands of players doing it everyday

[Matuse]

If you don't like RPG combat systems, you really shouldn't comment on them in that fashion.

It isn't a matter of what *I* like. Even in relatively popular games like DAoC, the PvP system is ass. The real problem with RPG PvP is one that can't be coded: The players. One griefer can ruin the game for 50 legitimate players.

The only game I've ever seen where it really worked well was a DikuMUD called "Dark Mists". Why did it work?

1) Enforced roleplay (Don't roleplay, lose your character)
2) Extremely active staff
3) Very high staff/player ratio
4) Heavy coded restrictions on who could fight who
5) Limited items...if the GM's decide that there will only be 10 greatswords of almighty ass whooping, then if all 10 have been recovered from the monsters, you need to go kill a player to get one.
6) Unlimited looting...if you were PK'd, you could write off every piece of gold, and every item you were carrying.
7) Permenant player death. PvP deaths aged characters, older characters had an increased chance of losing constitution. Zero constitution = erased character, start over.
8) No experience for killing players.
9) Relatively (compared to a MMORPG) small playerbase. Peak time would see 70-100 players online, not 100,000.

1, 2, 3, 5, 7 would never ever work in a MMORPG where the players had to pay for it. The remainder are not enough to base a system around. You can put in a billion hard-coded restrictions about who can fight, how often people can kill others, making skills less effective on other players, etc, etc...but eventually it just gets to the point where you might as well put in mutually consentual duels and leave it at that. The more open a system is, the more freedom the griefers have, and the more GMs are required to moderate what a computer cannot.

You can't give a job like that to player volunteers, which means having a HUGE full time (that is, 24 hour a day) staff for it. Not possible to make the game profitable with a staff that large, unless you charge an outrageous amount of money (like $50 a month), which then means you won't have a playerbase.

FPS/RTS/Turn based strategy games work on such fundamentally different principles, that PvP works with them quite easily. It just isn't the case in an RPG format.

[2coasts]

I find 1 major fault with your argument Matuse, you say that in games like Everquest, PvP does not work, you state that as a matter of fact. But the 100,000 people that play it seem to disagree with you...

[Warborn]

My point was that you seem to think that WoW will have bad PvP simply because it's an RPG. I personally believe that Blizzard will be able to craft an entertaining and exciting form of PvP (and PvE as well) for its game, as that's a pretty crucial part of the big picture and not something they'd neglect. If anyone can do it, Blizzard can. So I really do not believe there's any reason to pass judgement prematurely on it, as PvP will be excellent in WoW. Blizzard wouldn't allow anything short of excellence to be found in its first MMORPG.

But with the players, nothing will change that. Obviously no system will be perfect, but to expect perfection is to be an idealist. Roll with the punches -- it's a social game, social mishaps are part of it. If you can't do that, then you will not find much enjoyment out of MMORPGs, and I'd advise sticking to single-player games, or regular multiplayer ones.

[Solitudinem]

2coasts... you are WRONG, have you ever played EQ PVP? I have played on Sullon-Zek since the server opened, up until a few months ago, and while at the time, I liked to play, looking back I can say the PVP system was horrid.. for one, it isn't skill based, and you cannot hit someone when you are directly behind them..example: I cast darkness on a player, and try to run him down.. I have to be slightly behind and to his left or right side to hit him..RPGs *CAN* have systems that work to a degree, but they will *ALWAYS* be worse than point-and-click games.

[Harps]

anyway back to WoW i think its going to be great specially after watching that video it just looked great ...

I dont know how much ill be playing it since PS i guess it depends on how much i like PS

[Matuse]

2coasts:

I find 1 major fault with your argument Matuse, you say that in games like Everquest, PvP does not work, you state that as a matter of fact. But the 100,000 people that play it seem to disagree with you...

100,000 people do not play PvP in Everquest. The 4 "zek" servers, which are the PvP based, have always been and will always be the lowest population ones out of the 45 or so that are running. Hell, the Test server (where your character or his items could be wiped at any time with no recompense and no warning) is more heavily populated. As far as PvP in an RPG goes, you could not pick a worse example than Everquest.

Warborn:

My point was that you seem to think that WoW will have bad PvP simply because it's an RPG.

Actually, that was my point

So I really do not believe there's any reason to pass judgement prematurely on it, as PvP will be excellent in WoW.

It is too early, and yet you do pass such judgement in the same sentence where you claim that I shouldn't. Um...ok.

When WoW comes out in a year, odds are that I'll have long since forgotten about this entire thread and debate, so since I won't be able to do it then, I'll do it now: I TOLD YOU SO!

But with the players, nothing will change that. Obviously no system will be perfect, but to expect perfection is to be an idealist.

There is a perfect system: Player screening (Clearly impossible for WoW, where the only requirement to play is a computer, and internet connection, and a miniscule amount of money) and heavy staff moderation (I doubt Blizzard will have even as good as 1:500 GM/Player ratio - 1:750-1000 will be much more likely -, and for best results, it needs to be in the 1:40 range) combined with measurable penalties for anti-social behavior (ie: Kill someone, and the guards throw your character in jail for a real life month). Until these things exist, there will be endless problems.

The worst part is that the problems caused by players being immature lumps of shit will only be dealt with via code, and players are smarter than the code is...even things like secure trading get corrupted by the legions of scum who base their whole lives on doing nothing else. It'll be a lot worse in WoW than UO/EQ, simply because Blizzard has a ready-made (and enourmous) playerbase already lined up and waiting to play.

If you can't do that, then you will not find much enjoyment out of MMORPGs, and I'd advise sticking to single-player games, or regular multiplayer ones.

I find a great deal of enjoyment out of MMORPGs. I've had an active Everquest account for over 3 years now. If I can find the funds for it, I'll be playing planetside (although probably not for 3 years...I can't envision it keeping me interested for that length of time). I may very well play WoW, but if I do, you can bet your ass that I won't go near PvP.