I want to drive the Deliverer in Reinforced Armor

Airlift · 2003-06-22, 06:20 PM

The Deliverer is one of my favorite vehicles, and it is one I generally cert in at high levels. However, in my experience, it is rare to see these vehicles being used to transport squads around. In random pickup squads it makes sense, because the odds of finding two deliverer drivers hanging around the sanctuary is slim at best. On the other hand, there is a sizable gap between the firepower that can be brought to the field by a squad with two deliferers and either a galaxy or sunderer squad. That difference is exactly two MAXes.

I don't thinking adding a MAX slot to the deliverer would be the best way to address the firepower disparity, because I think the max limitation is interesting and appropriate to the class of the vehicle. Instead, like the subject says, I wish the Deliverer was treated as an open cockpit vehicle for the purpose pilot armor. This helps close the gaps, as a squad of 10 reifs can easily perform on par with a squad of 7 reifs, 2 maxes, and an agile.

I started this thread after listening to the latest Smokejumper interview on AGN. I'm the one that submitted the question so I decided to take his advice and post the reasoning behind the question.

If he meant to post this on the official forums, oh well sorry Deliverer pilots. I'm not posting over there until they stop nazi-banning people for having unpopular opinions.

�io · 2003-06-22, 06:32 PM

Yeah i explained in IRC that it was to try and up the Deliverer popularity. I think allowing reinforced to pilot that vehicle (only) would be cool, i myself love the thing and when i get RAM (and therefore stop lagging) i'm gonna pick it up for my outfit.

�io · 2003-06-22, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by ghost187
check this out http://www.outwar.com/page.php?x=1237010

Ok i was kidding the first time but now i'm serious.

The guy has posted 4 times and all 4 times he's posted nothing but that link, he's clearly here only to try and get people to that lame site.

Sputty · 2003-06-22, 06:37 PM

I'll post this thread in the OF. I agree with it.

http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/p...ML/001838.html

Peacemaker · 2003-06-22, 06:52 PM

Id agree with the BAN!

Other wise, the deliverer is a good transport but idk if i like the idea about Reinf abole to drive it. Personaly my engy and medic char will have deliv in his certs. Plan is to get a deliv loaded with supplies for repairing and healing plus mabye a few engy things (frgt name) and provide support for offensive movements plus carry any troops who need a lift to the front.

Airlift · 2003-06-22, 08:12 PM

Can you think of any down side to making it reif drivable?

BlakkyZ8 · 2003-06-22, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Airlift
Can you think of any down side to making it reif drivable?

Nope, I dont think there is one.

Ever since Beta I thought making the Deliverer open top would be a great idea.

Snord · 2003-06-23, 03:16 AM

If a Reinforced can drive a deliverer, whats the point in getting buggy certs?

Doppler · 2003-06-23, 03:33 AM

If a Reinforced can drive a deliverer, whats the point in getting buggy certs?

Because they cant. Unless they've changed that since i've been away.

Incompetent · 2003-06-23, 03:37 AM

Doppler, allow me to direct you to the title of the thread.

Snord, to answer your question, the harraser is cheaper in cert points, slightly faster and can be dropped from a galaxy, the empire buggies have heavier weapons and can also be airlifted by the galaxy, so i think it would even out fairly nicely. I love my deliverer, but the damn thing gets so much bad press because "the sunderer is better" that it makes me want to kill someone. I think the vehicle is slightly underpowered, and that a move like making it drivable by a reinforced would balance it and help out with the bad press. Making it move slightly faster in water would be extremely nice as well.

Lise · 2003-06-23, 03:52 AM

Mmmm. I'm not so sure about this. If they do this then the floodgates are open, and people will be clamoring for EVERYTHING to be drivable by reinforced armor. Agile will become next to useless for high BR people.

Although I do agree, the Deliverer is a bit anorexic. I'm just not entirely sure this is the love it needs...

rafein · 2003-06-23, 04:17 AM

I can see allowing reinforced to driver the Deliverer, if it loses it's ability to drive across rivers. Can't have an open cockpit, then dirve it into the water.

But they should do something for it. Cause when the facility sharing it's abilities along the lattice kicks in, Deliverer will not be used anymore. All you would need is a tech plant on your lattice, and you could ge a Sunderer at any point along the lattice. And the Sunderer is better armed, armored, and carries more people.

Hertston · 2003-06-23, 05:19 AM

Originally posted by rafein
And the Sunderer is better armed, armored, and carries more people.

True... but it's a dog to use and very slow. The Deliver is FUN to drive, faster, and perfectly adequate for squad grunt transport allowing for MAXes and those with their own transport to make their own way. The Deliverer is my favourite vehicle in the game as is. Can't say I've seen any shortage of them (Werner), either.

Airlift · 2003-06-23, 12:58 PM

On Emerald, the Deliverer appears to be rare and underutilized. If it is intended to be a niche vehicle, then so be it. However, as one of the coolest rides in the game, I would definately rather see more of them in the field. The only reason (in my estimation) that we don't see many is because the Sunder simply fills the ground transport role better in almost every situation. While there are and should be many slight differences, the disparity in personnel creates a very large disadvantage for a squad of deliverers compared to a Sunder squad.

To address the good points raised as to why not:

I can see allowing reinforced to driver the Deliverer, if it loses it's ability to drive across rivers. Can't have an open cockpit, then dirve it into the water.

While this is the case now, that is an arbitrary rule. I assume you are raising the issue from a realism standpoint rather than a game design standpoint (because the design simply needs to be consistent with fun and balance, and has nothing to do with whether an open cockpit vehicle can be amphibeous). However, realistically, there are plenty of open-top boats (including amphibeous craft). Further, if you look at the water level when a Deliverer crosses, it is below the top of the cockpit at all times.

In any case, I'm not suggesting that they change the model to make the cockpit look open. I think it would be perfect to leave everything the same and simply allow reif to drive it as is. To paraphrase Smokejumper as to why the Galaxy can be tailgunned by reif but not driven... Make the seats less cushy.

If a Reinforced can drive a deliverer, whats the point in getting buggy certs?

Quite simply, the Deliver and the Assault Buggies fill different roles. The Deliverer and the Sunder fill the same role, only differently. A more appropriate question, and the one I'm trying to address with this suggestion is: Since the Sunder can transport more powerful forces with better armor, bigger guns, and in tighter formation, what's the point in getting two people who have Deliverer certs?

If they do this then the floodgates are open, and people will be clamoring for EVERYTHING to be drivable by reinforced armor. Agile will become next to useless for high BR people.

This is a logical fallacy (slippery slope) and is largely irrelevent to my suggestion. There are no flood gates, and this isn't even a hot button issue, it is just something that has always bugged me about the ground transport vehicles. It has nothing to do with whether aircraft, or the other agile-restricted vehicles should keep or lose their restrictions.

Despite that, let's address each vehicle on its own merits and decide for each whether the restriction is appropriate:

Mosquito, Reaver, Galaxy: I'm lumping these together, because more than anything, the air vehicle pilots are assumed to be dedicated to the role of staying in their vehicle. While it is true that some people use them as taxis to get to the next base and jump out, more often than not, a Galaxy will drop troops and fly off / stand by in the SOI. Reavers and Mosquitos generally stay in the air where they can provide the air support they were designed for.

AMS: The armor restriction for the AMS is appropriate and not really a restriction, since you can change armor out of the back of the truck. This already provides the AMS driver the capability of wearing Reif, he just has to be in Agile when attempting to move the station.

ANT: I really don't know if this vehicle should be agile-restricted in the first place, especially since it is slow, unarmed, and unprotected. Further, the cockpit looks pretty open on the model.

Main Battle Tanks:
The MBTs aren't just closed-cockpit, they are open-hatch-and-crawl-inside. Even if all other ground vehicles were reif-drivable, I would argue against going that way with the tanks for this reason, as well as the fact that agile-restriction helps keep the tank driver from being at the top of the infantry scale when he gets out of the vehicle. It just doesn't make much sense for the tanker to be uber both in and out of the vehicle.

Sunder:
Like the MBTs, the Sunder is at the top of the firepower-to-bear chart. It has large cannons and a lot of armor, and the agile-restriction is appropriate from this perspective if no other. The Sunder holds a full squad (including 2 MAXes) and the only exo limitation is on the driver. That equates out to 7 Reif, 1 Agile, and 2 MAXes. Don't let a reif drive it, because that's the whole point of letting reif drive a Deliverer.

Lightning:
I could go either way on this one, because the Lightning is so defensively weak. Still, its offensive capabilities offset the limitation (imo) and given that it is most like a reaver and only a single man vehicle, I feel the agile-restriction is appropriate here as well as in the MBT/aircraft.

Kuraltai · 2003-06-23, 02:14 PM

I'm in agreement with Airlift ... making the Deliverer reinf drivable would make it a more popular transport for smaller units where the occasionally the only space taken in a sunderer is the gunners. Most maxes prefer to run to the next location ... except for moving en-mass to arrive together. Then the Galaxy and Sunderer are prefered.

As for taking away it's amphibious ability ... why? This doesn't off-set the difference in armor for the driver and if made into open cab, the vehicle does not submerge ... it rides on top of the water.
I agree there is no reason to change the model though for this purpose.

As for the ANT ... I usually carry a repeater and the repair guns for any damage I may incur and escape from ... and it's doubtful you would be able to jump out and defend the vehicle before it and probably you were blown up ... but I digress.

I vote YEA