How do you feel about the idea of class systems and no free-form inventory?

texico · 2012-01-17, 05:18 PM

I was wondering how people, particular those who played PS1, feel about the fact that players will select classes in PS2?

Obviously, this is speculative (which the whole forum is, really...), but we do know some details. It's been made clear that as it stands, for example, cloakers won't be able to carry medical apps because that's two separate classes, and while it's true that he can switch classes upon respawn, he can't fulfill both roles while on the battlefield.

I'm not feeling great about this, and am anxious to see exactly how it works in Beta. I think PlanetSide's freeform was one of its pillars that made it unique - as important an aspect as its "thousands of players" selling point.

Why? I think the ability to make selections how you choose personalised the game a lot. Everybody had their own little quirks and styles. For example, I always carried 6 medpacks when Sniping - people would take the piss, but it was my own little style

. Some people would carry two rifles, some would carry a shotgun and a rocket launcher, some carried grenades with flamethrowers... If pre-determined classes means you can't make those decisions, then that organically-created personalisation dies.

I understand that PlanetSide may have suffered too much from generalisation, but I think the way to move away from that is to encourage and give benefits to specialisation, rather than restrict generalisation. Maybe selecting your class gives you the attire of that class, so friendlies can expect you to be fulfilling that function. Or maybe the class you select gives you access to that classes weapons at all times, but weapons from other classes that you have certs for can be made available depending on the resource system. Or, maybe if the classes are restrictive, there should always be basic common pool weapons available to all classes - a shotgun (like the sweeper), a rifle (suppressor), grenades (frags), a pistol. If you want the real toys you need to select that class.

Probably more easy to discuss is the free-form inventory. Even if the class system is there and is restrictive, the free-form backpack is really a must. Within classes players should at least be able to to make personalised decisions such as how much ammo they want to take for a given situation, whether they want extra weapons in their backpacks that aren't holstered, whether they want extra ammo for a vehicle, or something. In a game that's going to praise itself on customisation, removing the free-form inventory, probably the most customisable and personalised system that could be in there seems bizarre. The whole system of interactivity with trunks and lockers and backpacks and looting people's corpses felt great as well, and I don't know what the obsession with modern games is about removing all that.

Personally the inventory also had potential. There could be loads of new variables and pieces of equipment that PS2 could have introduced that could have been interesting; NTU canisters perhaps, or whatever else could be thought up.

So, seeing as the details or beta aren't here, how are people actually feeling about the class system and the inventory? Do you think it will be better than PS1's system? Feeling skeptical? Think it could be pulled off?

I think some of the development points have been inspired, such as shields replacing armour (having to obsessively repair every time you got slightly damaged was a god damn pain), and I've been impressed with almost everything I've seen. But I've played PS1 since 2006 and these two points, I'm really concerned are going to be a step backwards from PS1. I also don't understand what the logic was to remove inventories.

Tasorin · 2012-01-17, 05:27 PM

The ability to be a combat functional army of one denigrates the whole idea of unit builds, fulfilling a role, and load out variety. You shouldn't be able to do it all at once, but you should be allowed to do one thing really well and still have enough "class" points left to be battlefield functional.

Quite frankly until SOE decides to actually release some core game mechanic write ups in which they confirm the actual nuts and bolts of how those game mechanics will function we can only speculate based on the conceptual information we have attained so far.

Bottom line, no one knows for sure what is or isn't going to be in Beta, let alone when Beta is actually going to occur. Not to even really go down the road of how the game core functions will change as we work our way through beta and stress testing into the final build for launch.

Shogun · 2012-01-17, 05:35 PM

i will not miss the jack of all trades rexos that are the standard loadout in ps1 now, but i will miss my cloaking frontline adv. medic and my unarmed engineer with maximum mines in backpack.

but i will just wait for beta to see what the devs have in store for us.

texico · 2012-01-17, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Tasorin

The ability to be a combat functional army of one denigrates the whole idea of unit builds, fulfilling a role, and load out variety. You shouldn't be able to do it all at once, but you should be allowed to do one thing really well and still have enough "class" points left to be battlefield functional.

Quite frankly until SOE decides to actually release some core game mechanic write ups in which they confirm the actual nuts and bolts of how those game mechanics will function we can only speculate based on the conceptual information we have attained so far.

Bottom line, no one knows for sure what is or isn't going to be in Beta, let alone when Beta is actually going to occur. Not to even really go down the road of how the game core functions will change as we work our way through beta and stress testing into the final build for launch.

Unfortunately when the information isn't fully there it's difficult for the community to react. We have to wait until Beta before we can test some of these aspects and really decide for sure, but that far in to development and it may be too late for things to change even if there are problems. So your concerns or opinions have to be kind of speculatory. I think that's kind of what happened with the class system idea in the first place. The PS1 community didn't know about it until it was going to happen/happening, and so couldn't react, whether to support it or shout it down.

So speculation kind of lets the devs know what the community is thinking even if we don't even know whether said system is or isn't in at all because they can't give any clues away.

Tasorin · 2012-01-17, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by texico

Unfortunately when the information isn't fully there it's difficult for the community to react. We have to wait until Beta before we can test some of these aspects and really decide for sure, but that far in to development and it may be too late for things to change even if there are problems. So your concerns or opinions have to be kind of speculatory.

The community tries to pull every last ounce of information we can out of Higgles and company in regards to core game mechanics. The advantage that PS2 may have, depending on what "F2P" really means, is if the Client is free to download, then there are not units to press, package, ship, and stock at at traditional brick and mortar. This means that in a scenario with a F2P downloadable client that the PS2 team can make changes right up until the day the servers go live. Unlike when you ship pressed units and have to lock down the build long before you go live. Now of course with a hard release you can be tweaking the client and patch the changes, but you are not making any radical changes. PS2 would or could be afforded that opportunity in a F2P client to make major changes in Beta right up until the live launch.

SKYeXile · 2012-01-17, 05:49 PM

The class system maybe okay, provided its not to restrictive IMO, id hate the game to come to something like TF2 or Global agenda or and MMORPG where as a tank or heavy armour class you're sort of dependant on pocket healers. I liked PS1 where you could support yourself. Id hope as an assault I'm still able to heal myself and the medic class will offer things like, faster out of combat healing, deployable spawn points and resurrection and not directly sway the outcome of a fire fight like other games.

As for the inventory system? ill pass my judgement until we see what they have planned, from what we have seen their customisation has been pretty good, im sure we will see lots of different slots where we can interchange items, special ability, perks and implanets etc.

texico · 2012-01-17, 06:05 PM

^^

That's interesting, although I though PS2 would be released with CD's in the same fashion as PS1 or TF2 were, although this depends on if they're setting a price to purchase.

^

I feel similar, in that it might be okay, if they do allow access to a basic weapon of each type (rifle, shotgun, pistol, some form of healing etc). However, I still think it would be much better if they encouraged people to set themselves up as classes through their own decision making (based on variables like benefits and what needs to be achieved) rather than force them to not be able to generalize how they want (cloaking+med app for example).

I'm much more skeptical about the lack of freeform inventory though, although I think that's probably something that can be changed much more easily from post-beta reaction.

bkx · 2012-01-17, 06:05 PM

A free-form inventory system could still exist with classes, some items/weapons could be restricted to certain classes. You could still customize your inventory for tradeoffs between ammo, healing, and supplying teammates.

NewSith · 2012-01-17, 06:10 PM

I'm a fan of the freeform, but I take it classes were added to simplify the gameplay. That such system does perfectly.

SKYeXile · 2012-01-17, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by texico

^^

That's interesting, although I though PS2 would be released with CD's in the same fashion as PS1 or TF2 were, although this depends on if they're setting a price to purchase.

^

I feel similar, in that it might be okay, if they do allow access to a basic weapon of each type (rifle, shotgun, pistol, some form of healing etc). However, I still think it would be much better if they encouraged people to set themselves up as classes through their own decision making (based on variables like benefits and what needs to be achieved) rather than force them to not be able to generalize how they want (cloaking+med app for example).

I'm much more skeptical about the lack of freeform inventory though, although I think that's probably something that can be changed much more easily from post-beta reaction.

well they have said that their would be" skill trees for weapons, vehicles and classes" and i guess other misc things like leadership.

I cent remember what that quote was, i think its on a PC gamer article. but i would imagine since they separated weapons and classes that some of the weapons are usable cross class, or what would be the point in having separate trees?

Unless they're doing it like BF series where there were common weapons to each class available, could be the purpose of nanite systems in a way.

ThGlump · 2012-01-17, 06:38 PM

Classes can have some good points, but i fear it will means one thing. That transport vehicles will be obsolete, and there wont be any gunners. In ps1 you had to sacrifice something (a little but still) to have tank. Now everyone will have it, so nobody would want to be passenger or shoot, when tank is only respawn/change class away (with better weapon youll get as a gunner).
Driver/gunner idea with easily changeable classes means only vehicle (1 person each) fighting between bases, youll never see any soldier.

Brusi · 2012-01-17, 06:47 PM

Just because they are replacing free-form inv with a class system doesn't mean that your kit will not be greatly customisable.

I'm hoping at least that they are taking note of how important the underlying concept behind free-form inv's was. That being the ablility to choose the type and set of weapons and devices you felt matched your playstyle.

Hopefully classes will just be a way to stop OP combos.

I don't think there is any problem with restricting ReXo/HA/AV/Med/Eng grunt spec, but not being able to play a pure support role of cloaker/eng/medic/hacker, at the expense of any real killing power might be missed.

Sirisian · 2012-01-17, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by bkx

A free-form inventory system could still exist with classes, some items/weapons could be restricted to certain classes. You could still customize your inventory for tradeoffs between ammo, healing, and supplying teammates.

Originally Posted by Brusi

Just because they are replacing free-form inv with a class system doesn't mean that your kit will not be greatly customisable.

Essentially these kinds of points. The free-form inventory was broken and pointless in PS1. It circumvented the whole concept of weapon and utility slots. Think about it. When you used agile and you swapped from your gun to a deci was there really a delay? Suddenly you were using an armor as if it had 2 weapon slots. I feel the class system should focus on weapon and utility slots as customization. Choosing from tons of choices within a class to really vary each soldier without allowing silly min-maxing.

Raymac · 2012-01-17, 08:13 PM

I'm personally not going to miss the tetris mini-game inventory system. I liked the concept of the "free-form" classes in PS1 but we all know that the default loadout, especially for indoor fights, became HA/AV/Eng/Med, and if everyone can carry Eng and Med then it kind of squeezed out those people that actually want to play a support role.

Shade Millith · 2012-01-17, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

When you used agile and you swapped from your gun to a deci was there really a delay? Suddenly you were using an armor as if it had 2 weapon slots.

And you sacrificed a massive amount of space in your inventory to hold the deci as an agile. Space you could use for ammo/glue/grenades/medikits.
By that thinking, a Rexo has 4 weapon slots.

On the loss of customization, I despise it. It's the biggest thing that's making me worried about the game. The new Tribes game removed it, and I hated it there, and I'll hate it here.

There was always a choice of what you wanted. Did I want an extra medkit, or more ammo, or more grenades, or an extra deci?

Now it's going to be flat and stale. You have this class, these weapons, this much ammo/grenades, bugger off. We've decided for you what you want.

Can I be an ammo mule? Can I just be a rezzer in a gen hold with hundreds and hundreds of juice and no ammo? Can I just setup to have maximum grenade launcher ammo and nothing more to defend a door?

Can I have my trophy locker of looted enemy HA?

Originally Posted by Raymac

and if everyone can carry Eng and Med then it kind of squeezed out those people that actually want to play a support role.

Then stay back and concentrate on supporting rather than shooting. You don't need a class name to tell you what to do.