A video that can help the PS2 developers on getting the feel of the guns right!

EVILoHOMER · 2012-03-13, 04:44 PM

Really sums up what makes a difference in how to make shooting feel satisfying.

Furber · 2012-03-14, 01:40 AM

Never played the counter strike games, but I definitely see what this guy is talking about.

Yutty · 2012-03-14, 01:55 AM

1st video definitely was much better.

Sirisian · 2012-03-14, 02:44 AM

heh lol. Was about to say there's already a thread similar to this, but I noticed you started it here. Wasn't sure if that's how the NC guns were supposed to react. That and it's an alpha. I guess it's good to get the feedback in there early though, but a lot of these topics are kind of on the pointless side.

I'm hoping they capture that feeling of firing the Punisher from the original game in the new game. But as for having the camera shake it's not that big of deal.

Raymac · 2012-03-14, 02:58 AM

There is a fine line to walk there between being visceral and being annoyingly difficult to manage. It would be nice for the devs to find that goldilocks zone, but I don't envy their job in trying to find that balance.

CutterJohn · 2012-03-14, 02:59 AM

Not a fan of lots of screenshake. Maybe something between the two would be ok, though I'd prefer the 2nd video.

Pozidriv · 2012-03-14, 03:05 AM

I can understand his argument for CS since that game doesn't have ADS. Makes sense to have some screen action to make it feel more lively.

Personally im not that keen on the screen shake for PS2 since we got ADS. Good gun movement and some screen "jitter" would go nicely.

bigcracker · 2012-03-14, 03:57 AM

Man thank god my head doesn't shake when i fire a gun in RL like that, massive head ache.

ARMA does it the best BF3 behind that,If your holding the gun right the only thing that should move is the gun driving back into your shoulder.I know there is not realism but screen shaking is just a way for a old game to try to give realistic recoil or something like that.

Death2All · 2012-03-14, 04:00 AM

I don't think making the screen shake violently is going to improve the game any. Personally, that kind of thing gets on my nerves and gives me a headache over time.

The BFRs walking next to you and having your screen violently shake right as you're trying to line up a shot was one of the most irritating things I experienced in PS1.

Skitrel · 2012-03-14, 04:07 AM

Screenshake isn't the answer to making the guns feel right. The screenshake in the alpha looks about right to me. Compared with Battlefield for example, which in my opinion has the best feeling of connection to the gun of any game right now, it's really not that different.

The hip fire has more screen shake than the ADS. Notice how that's the same in the PS video too. The real difference is in two things, the sounds, and the gun shake. Both battlefield and cod have the gun increase in size towards the player for each shot, showing the kick back per shot. This in addition to good powerful sounds is more than enough to connect players. The larger problem with the alpha footage, in my opinion, is the sounds, they're nowhere near powerful enough for advanced space guns, they need to be much more visceral sounding.

So, more powerful sounds + stronger gun shake animation, only a small amount of screen shake.

I don't think anyone can argue with Battlefield's sound design and how connected the guns feel when firing, best sound design in any game right now. Those of you with 3D headsets know this even more so too.

I'm all for connecting us with the guns but screenshake as the CS video guy suggested isn't the correct answer. The problem with CS:GO is the puny sounds and heavily decreased recoil.

Shanesan · 2012-03-14, 04:24 AM

Screen jitter and appropriate UI feedback definitely should be done on TRays side first. This video was from an absolute boss Art designer from Realtime Worlds before APB went belly up. Understand the differences from before and after and get a feel what a camera can actually do to gameplay.

And

A smart camera really makes the game. You seeing this, TRay?

bigcracker · 2012-03-14, 05:28 AM

Right now in Alpha it from the looks it feels right They don't need to change it.

EVILoHOMER · 2012-03-14, 07:02 AM

My point isn't to copy the shooting in CS, it's to show you the differences these things make and how to tweak them. For example adding a bit of screen shake helps, like it's even in BF3 as you can see from a video above. In real life guns shake you and you can have lots of kick back depending on the weapon, to replicate this you have to have screen shake as you don't have any force feedback. You can also hear how weak the guns sound in CS:GO compared to CS 1.6 and again that makes them sound so crap, in real life a gun is loud and you have to wear ear protection.

We need the developers to look at how to make the guns feel just right. In RTCW air strikes used to make your screen shake and it got across the power of them. If you can stand right next to an explosion and nothing happens apart from a loss of health then you feel cheated. You don't feel the impact that explosion had on you and it just feels so wrong and ruins the enjoyment. It's like in games when you get shot but you don't get slowed by the shot, it's so dumb because you feel like you die instantly and it's frustrating. Where as in CS 1.6 when you get hit it slows you and so you get enough feedback so when you die you know why. This is why games like COD added the Kill cam to show you how you died so you don't get frustrated, CS 1.6 has the bullet slowing you down.

The shooting feeling like crap in Planetside was the main reason most people I know thought the game was shit. Only two of my friends played Planetside and that is because they followed it, however new players aren't going to understand what makes the game special,l you need to get the basics right so they can go past 10 mins of play. Warhammer Online had amazing end game keep PVP in beta but when I bought the game and had to do 1 - 30 to get to Tier 4 I just quit, it felt like playing WoW over again. I know so many friends who quit because it felt just like WoW after 10 mins, you need to draw people in right away and for an FPS the shooting is the first thing people notice.

CutterJohn · 2012-03-14, 07:35 AM

About the only thing the PS2 gunplay needs is more oomph! to the sounds. PS1 sounds were pretty wet noodle. Most of the machine guns sounded more like typewriters than machine guns.

Skitrel · 2012-03-14, 07:47 AM

Way more oomph, some pretty echo would be nice but registering type of sound to play for the gun noises indoors vs outdoors vs various locations would be tough. I presume the sound engine is nowhere near as complex as BFs and is more of a simple "play x sound" deal whereas BF3's involves waves that actually change shape over distance, have a travel time (you can see an explosion waaay before hearing it at long range) and the overall effect is that things happening next to you sound entirely different to things happening far away, compared with more simple systems where distance to sound just changes the volume and perhaps tone a little.

Because of this, getting the oomph everyone has been spoiled with by Battlefield will be tough. The CS1.6 sounds are great though, I forgot how powerful they sounded even if they are low quality sounding. You can hear a slight echo rolling off those AK shots and it makes it sound very heavy and very visceral. Hopefully we get some great sound, when shit is hitting the fan all around me in all directions I want it to sound glorious and terrifying.

Along the same lines, vehicles need to sound powerful too, not to mention another thing - tanks might sound powerful but they better be powerful too. None of that BF3 tank with ZERO torque crap. I better be able to go up up to 40 degree slopes in those bad boys, let alone 10degree pathetic humps.