Gameplay: Shaped Explosive Delivery System (Spare the Ride, Split the Driver)

[Hypevosa]

My proposal is a new new weapon, the Shaped Explosive Charge (SEC) a grenade that latches on to vehicles and uses a shaped charge to blast a small hole through said vehicle. The intention of using the weapon is not to destroy a vehicle, but simply to kill the pilot inside said vehicle by giving them some unnecessary ventilation. (youtube.com/watch?v=suydUkhCWkM)

I imagine it looking a bit like the spider mine from Half Life, but flatter and with the color of the dot depending on the faction.


For normal infantry, this means a way of taking down tanks and the like without needing to tote around a rocket launcher, but the price is that the weapon is useless against infantry (unlike a frag grenade) since it won't stick to them, and it requires a good bit of precision or getting really close to use effectively. It also means that a vehicle is still on the battlefield for someone of the other faction to use (or you for universal vehicles), meaning that explosives and heavy arms still have an important place in destroying heavy armaments.

For MAXes, this means a sniping equivalent armament against vehicles in the from of a launcher called the SEDS (Shaped Explosive Delivery System). The SEDS will launch SECs with the speed of a normal rocket (perhaps a little slower). The advantage, obviously, being that a precise shot will instantly neutralize enemy armor rather than having to bash through the armor first. The disadvantage being no AOE, and missed shots being ultimately a waste of time and ammunition. Depending on the need for balancing, it could also have more drop than a rocket, and it could have a delayed trigger to firing time, meaning you pull the trigger but the projectile doesn't immediately leave the weapon, requiring you keep your target in your sites.

The SEDS I imagine looking like arocket launcher where it is "rifled" but the rifling is carved out space for the SEC legs to fit in, giving it gyroscopic stabilization for flight, and allowing it to be launched electromagnetically instead of using an explosion based propulsion.

And, yes, it is meant to be a 1 hit kill (as I imagine shields aren't working when operating a vehicle), but it is meant to be rather difficult to employ effectively since vehicles are normally mobile, and useless except for its proposed purpose. It could also be used to damage people behind cover, but, their shields being up, it would not 1 hit them unless they were extremely low on health. To actually hurt anyone in a vehicle with it you'd need to hit specific points where the center of the device will cross the driver of the vehicle, so throwing it on the treads of a tank for example, would simply be a waste.

It would make a nice thud, and beep for 4 seconds before going off to give pilots a small window to GTFO. They are also somewhat sensitive to damage, and, someone noticing one, could destroy it with enough gun fire.

[Purple]

we cant have everyone be AV. The point of the class system is so you know what people can do to you. You wouldent want clocked maxes running around would you?

[Gonefshn]

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

My proposal is a new new weapon, the Shaped Explosive Charge (SEC) a grenade that latches on to vehicles and uses a shaped charge to blast a small hole through said vehicle. The intention of using the weapon is not to destroy a vehicle, but simply to kill the pilot inside said vehicle by giving them some unnecessary ventilation. (youtube.com/watch?v=suydUkhCWkM)

I imagine it looking a bit like the spider mine from Half Life, but flatter and with the color of the dot depending on the faction.


For normal infantry, this means a way of taking down tanks and the like without needing to tote around a rocket launcher, but the price is that the weapon is useless against infantry (unlike a frag grenade) since it won't stick to them, and it requires a good bit of precision or getting really close to use effectively. It also means that a vehicle is still on the battlefield for someone of the other faction to use (or you for universal vehicles), meaning that explosives and heavy arms still have an important place in destroying heavy armaments.

For MAXes, this means a sniping equivalent armament against vehicles in the from of a launcher called the SEDS (Shaped Explosive Delivery System). The SEDS will launch SECs with the speed of a normal rocket (perhaps a little slower). The advantage, obviously, being that a precise shot will instantly neutralize enemy armor rather than having to bash through the armor first. The disadvantage being no AOE, and missed shots being ultimately a waste of time and ammunition. Depending on the need for balancing, it could also have more drop than a rocket, and it could have a delayed trigger to firing time, meaning you pull the trigger but the projectile doesn't immediately leave the weapon, requiring you keep your target in your sites.

The SEDS I imagine looking like arocket launcher where it is "rifled" but the rifling is carved out space for the SEC legs to fit in, giving it gyroscopic stabilization for flight, and allowing it to be launched electromagnetically instead of using an explosion based propulsion.

And, yes, it is meant to be a 1 hit kill (as I imagine shields aren't working when operating a vehicle), but it is meant to be rather difficult to employ effectively since vehicles are normally mobile, and useless except for its proposed purpose. It could also be used to damage people behind cover, but, their shields being up, it would not 1 hit them unless they were extremely low on health.

The idea of being able to 1 hit kill someone inside an MBT is off putting to me and I'm sure many will agree. With a weapon that effective it will be over used.

Instead of having infantry be able to carry a one hit kill tank buster as well as carbines and assault rifles why not let this role be taken by a jammer grenade??

This seems much more fair. It does the exact same thing as the weapon you described except for two big differences which I see as more fair and less end-all. What I mean is your talking about a grenade that takes a vehicle out of commission without destroying it. This is exactly the same as a jammer.
Here are the two differences.

1. You don't kill the person or damage the tank. This means less frustration all around. I don't want to pull an MBT and get one shotted, thats just nuts to me. The only exception I suppose is someone planting multiple C4 on or under my vehicle. Seems fair enough if they can do that I deserve it.

2. Limited time. You still accomplish the same goal. infantry can take a tank out of commission to allow them to escape or to bring in heavy assault with AV to finish the job. The tank goes offline, being unable to shoot or unable to move or both. Possibly even be able to toggle between two modes that do one or the other. Then after a time period elapses the pilot regains control.

A tank busting grenade seems too much. And a non lethal jammer gets the same job done.

[Hypevosa]

I'm going to guess I didn't emphasize enough that, for the device to work, you need to actually hit the driver with it. Not the rear wheels, not the exhaust, not the engine, the driver. With the shape of many of the vehicles, that leaves very few, very precise points on the hull where the shaped charge would actually cause the death of the operator (for example, the lightning tank would have only 3 not counting its underside). Trying to hit a person sized target that currently is moving with the speed of a tank/humvee/jet, is going to be like trying to stab a fly with a screwdriver. Not to mention you don't get the credit for vehicle destruction either.

For a heavy, thrown weapon, like the SEC I'd imagine the maximum range, with arc, would be somewhere around 30 meters. This wouldn't magically make everyone AV - the AV classes would still be 95% more effective, except for the small percentage who would actually hone their skills at making said tosses, or who would set up ambushes or situations where they could actually get that almost guranteed hit (where they've basically mounted said vehicle). This would also fall under a specialized grenade, which I believe are currently only available to the light armor scouts.

The MAXes using the SEDS will be sacrificing one of their only two weapons for one that is almost exclusively antivehicular, and has very limited capacity to harm infantry, and requires extreme precision to be able to use effectively. I'd expect the firing rate to be around 1 per 3-5 seconds, and I'd only expect them to carry around 20 at most.

I think a jammer grenade would actually be far more frustrating since you're basically forced to sit in the tank and be wailed at (I.E. killed) or you are forced to exit said tank and be murdered by the people with the assault rifles... A jammer grenade also takes no skill to use, or less depending on if you're talking about an AOE or something you just stick to the vehicle. Either way, you're only making the tank and/or the driver a sitting duck waiting for death. Killing someone quickly so they could move on would be favorable, at least in the situation where player skill is what resulted in your death.

I'm favoring it as a 1 hit kill because of the sheer skill required to employ it effectively. Anyone who can hit a jet in the cockpit so the pilot takes it deserves that kill, same with any other moving vehicle and from any distance aside from them standing ontop of it. MBTs aren't exactly lumbering beasts either from what I can recall. If they moved slower than infantry, I could see them taking at least 2 hits, but I'm fairly certain they're still quicker by comparison when moving at full speed.

[Purple]

i dont see the point of not killing the tank. from what we have heard you cannot hack them.

[Gonefshn]

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

I'm going to guess I didn't emphasize enough that, for the device to work, you need to actually hit the driver with it. Not the rear wheels, not the exhaust, not the engine, the driver. With the shape of many of the vehicles, that leaves very few, very precise points on the hull where the shaped charge would actually cause the death of the operator (for example, the lightning tank would have only 3 not counting its underside). Trying to hit a person sized target that currently is moving with the speed of a tank/humvee/jet, is going to be like trying to stab a fly with a screwdriver. Not to mention you don't get the credit for vehicle destruction either.

That does change things. Definitely landing a grande on an exact spot when you have to use an arc toss is more difficult.

Jammers can be frustrating but that why i liked the PS1 version where you lost your main cannon but could still move. Also the frustration of getting jammed is offset by how it keeps playing an infantry from being frustrating.

It's not a bad idea if using it is that specific and you have to nail that perfect spot. perhaps give it a timer and allow it to be disarmed with the repair tool the engineer has before it goes off. This way if you noticed someone nailed you with it you might stand a chance of living, but it would still work out for the person who threw it because your taken out of commission anyway as you get out to disarm it.

[Hypevosa]

Originally Posted by Purple

i dont see the point of not killing the tank. from what we have heard you cannot hack them.

It was to balance the instant kill on the driver and instant incapacitation of the vehicle. The tank is still on the field and can be used by enemy combatants against you, meaning this device, while effective in the right hands, is not something that will fully replace AV weapons.

Also, as there are universal vehicles like the lightning tank, I'd expect that we CAN take over those vehicles even if they're another faction's - they're all the same exact thing by nanite systems, so we should be able to operate those regardless of who bought them and the colors of their exteriors.

Originally Posted by Gonefshn

That does change things. Definitely landing a grande on an exact spot when you have to use an arc toss is more difficult.

Jammers can be frustrating but that why i liked the PS1 version where you lost your main cannon but could still move. Also the frustration of getting jammed is offset by how it keeps playing an infantry from being frustrating.

It's not a bad idea if using it is that specific and you have to nail that perfect spot. perhaps give it a timer and allow it to be disarmed with the repair tool the engineer has before it goes off. This way if you noticed someone nailed you with it you might stand a chance of living, but it would still work out for the person who threw it because your taken out of commission anyway as you get out to disarm it.

I was imagining about a 4 second timer with a nice thud and beeps so the driver has that small ~1-2 second window to GTFO (though if the thing is over the hatch specifically it would likely still get them if they weren't fast enough). Remember, it's not going to do much damage to the vehicle at all, so an engineer isn't really necessary for this situation.

The SEC could also take damage and be "disarmed" by someone destroying it before the shaped charge can go off. All you have to do to disrupt a shaped charge is damage the vessel containing the explosive such that it cannot focus the explosion anymore, so it does make sense enough damage would disarm the device.

Here's a demo:

[Baneblade]

Why not neutron mines?

[Hypevosa]

Well, I just went with something that exists and I know is scientifically possible - neutron mines do not sound like solid science to me o.O and that's kinda ripping off another game which is something I'm attempting to avoid.

[Baneblade]

Huh? Neutron weapons are ERWs, Extreme Radiation Weapons.

[Hypevosa]

The idea of directing the radiation into the vehicle and somehow also evacuating it so it becomes viable for later use is what's suspect for me. And why copy something from command and conquer?

[Baneblade]

Command and Conquer copied it from real life.

[metziih]

I don't think this is a good idea since we already have dedicated AV-weapons and satchel-charges/C4 which is more than capable of disabling/destroying enemy tanks.

[Hypevosa]

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

Command and Conquer copied it from real life.

The only thing that comes up as "neutron mines" is from command and conquer. Find me some real life stuff.

Originally Posted by metziih

I don't think this is a good idea since we already have dedicated AV-weapons and satchel-charges/C4 which is more than capable of disabling/destroying enemy tanks.

Actually, all of those things destroy the armor, and, unless we want the armor to get destroyed too quickly in large fire fights, they do so very slowly.

[Baneblade]

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

The only thing that comes up as "neutron mines" is from command and conquer. Find me some real life stuff.

Here, let me neutron facepalm for you.