Everybody gets to drive everything? WTF?

[Rivenshield]

Maybe I'm just being a reactionary old fart, but this puts me slightly off my feed.

In all modern FPS's anyone can jump into a tank, a chopper, a jet, etc.... but that's for battles that rarely last for more than ten minutes, and then the map resets. In a persistent game like Planetside, I'd kinda like to see us stick with the old system. You get a few free certs to start off with, but you have to make a commitment of sorts. You have to choose whether to spawn or drive a given class of vehicle.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

And on a related note: I have looked, but cannot find, any news on whether or not PS2 will allow us to re-spec our certs. Can we or can't we? or is this another Wait Until Beta issue?

[Kayos]

I don't think we can re-spec certs as they have said there is no need since we can get every cert anyway.

I think we should have to cert for vehicles too.

[Doxy]

You can't respec and to be effective with that vehicle you gotta spec in it.
Each vehicle cost resources to spawn, so you can't spawn them all day long.

[fvdham]

I would assume a medic to be more likely a passenger in a Galaxy or Sunderer than a driver.

[Electrofreak]

Yeah, I'm not too keen on everyone being able to drive everything too, particularly when the driver can be a gunner as well.

I mean, sometimes it was hard to get a full tank column because not everyone was certed in it, but that's why you had specialty outfits.

I'll wait until Beta before I decide if I want to complain about it.

[BillyBob]

I can certainly see where OP is coming from, and being able to just jump into any vehicle and be able to drive or fly it certainly is a considerable step away from how it worked in the original PlanetSide.

However, I imagine I can also see why SOE would go this way with PS2.

Granting immediate use of all vehicles will make the game more accessible from an entry point perspective. It will allow players to very quickly get into the vehicle aspects of the game and figure out if it's something they think is fun and perhaps would like to specialize further in. If there is a vehicle-related role in the game suitable for you, you'll find it quicker and without having to spend certpoints.

Also, as OP mentioned, this is the way most FPS players are used to when it comes to vehicles in those modern shooters that have them. I think it's safe to say that a rather large number of new PS2 players will crossover from that specific category of games.

From what little we've seen of the certification system in PS2, it seems pretty extensive. This could suggest that even though everyone and anyone could use any given vehicle, certing into it will still make a considerable difference and be something of true worth in terms of gameplay.

As for "respeccing" the cert points...I don't know. But if they would allow for it then my guess is there would most likely be a cost involved.

In short, initial access is wide open (basic use of all vehicles), but most likely it's the cert points you put into the vehicles in question that will turn you into that highly specialized unit which for example your Outfit would need or your personal combat role would demand.

If that's the case then I'm perfectly ok with it, as long as what you cert into really does matter and makes a considerable difference.

/BB

[NoDachi]

When I first started hearing details about ps2 I was really put off by the whole class/inventory/cert/vehicle changes, but after playing planetside 1 and watching the e3 streams again I realised I was just being abit of a bitter vet and I can understand and approve of most of the new changes.

[SixShooter]

I'm fine with it. More accessability will mean a larger playerbase and realistically, there just aren't all that many vehicles to choose from at launch anyway.

[Electrofreak]

Originally Posted by BillyBob

I can certainly see where OP is coming from, and being able to just jump into any vehicle and be able to drive or fly it certainly is a considerable step away from how it worked in the original PlanetSide.

However, I imagine I can also see why SOE would go this way with PS2.

Granting immediate use of all vehicles will make the game more accessible from an entry point perspective. It will allow players to very quickly get into the vehicle aspects of the game and figure out if it's something they think is fun and perhaps would like to specialize further in. If there is a vehicle-related role in the game suitable for you, you'll find it quicker and without having to spend certpoints.

Also, as OP mentioned, this is the way most FPS players are used to when it comes to vehicles in those modern shooters that have them. I think it's safe to say that a rather large number of new PS2 players will crossover from that specific category of games.

From what little we've seen of the certification system in PS2, it seems pretty extensive. This could suggest that even though everyone and anyone could use any given vehicle, certing into it will still make a considerable difference and be something of true worth in terms of gameplay.

As for "respeccing" the cert points...I don't know. But if they would allow for it then my guess is there would most likely be a cost involved.

In short, initial access is wide open (basic use of all vehicles), but most likely it's the cert points you put into the vehicles in question that will turn you into that highly specialized unit which for example your Outfit would need or your personal combat role would demand.

If that's the case then I'm perfectly ok with it, as long as what you cert into really does matter and makes a considerable difference.

/BB

Your post brings up some excellent points; well written.

[exoteror]

I think having access to all the vehicals is great, Don't you just hate it when someone shouts "everyone pull a reaver" and you need to run to a bio lab waste your respec timer to join the fun.

You can now join in with any fun event, but to be fully effective in the vehical of your choosing you will have cource have to cert into it and buy the extra weapons for the vehical. I think it is a great trade off.

[diLLa]

I think the resource system will make sure not everyone can just spam vehicles all day long.

And certing still makes you specialized in something.

[Crator]

Originally Posted by BillyBob

thoughts

Very well said... Was thinking along the same lines myself...

[Notturno]

Originally Posted by Rivenshield

Maybe I'm just being a reactionary old fart, but this puts me slightly off my feed.

In all modern FPS's anyone can jump into a tank, a chopper, a jet, etc.... but that's for battles that rarely last for more than ten minutes, and then the map resets. In a persistent game like Planetside, I'd kinda like to see us stick with the old system. You get a few free certs to start off with, but you have to make a commitment of sorts. You have to choose whether to spawn or drive a given class of vehicle.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

I feel inclined to agree to a certain point.

I firmly believe that the maximum amount of certifications should be capped. I do not believe anyone should be able to certify in every single specialization if they invest the time into it. I believe it gives veterans too much of an advantage and ultimately homogenizes gameplay at the latter end of the game's lifetime. A year or two after release, you will be left with nothing but maxed out characters who have maximum certifications and no weaknesses in their certification tree. This discourages new players from entering the game, as it will take them an exorbitant amount of time to reach veteran status.

I believe that certifications should have a capped amount that one can achieve; it should be a number decided upon by the development team that allows an individual to "max" maybe four "play styles" and an arbitrary number of weapons and gadgets. For example's sake, let's say twenty-five.

When I say a maximum of four "play styles," I am specifically referring to combinations of classes and vehicles. Play styles would include the six infantry classes, light ground vehicles, heavy ground vehicles, light aircraft, and heavy aircraft. So, someone who is really into infantry combat may choose to max out four different infantry classes. Or maybe someone wants to max out light and heavy ground vehicles, heavy assault, and engineer. What this essentially says is that you can either choose to specialize in a few core areas of the game, or you can spread out your certifications so you can be a more flexible player who can cover more roles. I think this provides a more even footing in the long run; no one person can be maxed out in every single certification, as they must choose a specific path they want to take as a player.

The same logic would apply for weaponry. To have maximized certifications in each weapon is insane; you ultimately end up with veteran players having a raw power advantage over new players, simply because they have the most decked out weapons available in the game. I believe that by capping the number of certifications one can spend on weapons, you are again forcing specialization of roles so players cannot realistically be "the best" at every single weapon and gadget in the game. I believe this would end up following along the same lines as the aforementioned cap on maximized "play styles." You would end up with people spending certifications specializing in their preferred tank's weapon systems, their top five to ten infantry weapons, and top used gadgets for their infantry classes and vehicles. Again, you are offering players the opportunity to either specialize or diversify depending on their preferences.

Now that I've kind of outlined some thoughts on the subject, I guess I'd like to explain the rationale behind it. Like the OP said, I think it's kind of silly to allow everyone to ultimately achieve maximum specialization in every single weapon and class in the game.

To me, it makes more sense to offer a capped certification count to create meaningful role assignments in the game. If everyone can perform every role in the game, I think it kind of defeats the purpose of having progression elements in the first place. To me, it would make more sense to allow everyone to use every game feature available, but individuals would ultimately have to decide what their favorite roles are and spend their certification points on those roles to become better suited to performing them. Creating demand for particular roles in the game is healthy to promote more teamwork among each faction's population, rather than having particular groups becoming insulated due to their ability to perform every role at its maximum potential.

I guess it's just some longing for more MMORPG elements in the game. I just do not like the idea of "maxing" every certification and having nothing left to aspire to.

Originally Posted by Rivenshield

And on a related note: I have looked, but cannot find, any news on whether or not PS2 will allow us to re-spec our certs. Can we or can't we? or is this another Wait Until Beta issue?

The current certification system allows you to maximize everything, thus the logic is that certification resets will not be available under the current iteration of the system. However, they do not seem firmly decided on the issue; I think it's very likely beta opinions could sway the way certifications ultimately work, and whether or not certification resets are available. However, I recall from numerous interviews that Higby would only want to offer limited resets to prevent abuse of the system.

[Daemonn]

Originally Posted by Notturno

I feel inclined to agree to a certain point.

I firmly believe that the maximum amount of certifications should be capped. I do not believe anyone should be able to certify in every single specialization if they invest the time into it. I believe it gives veterans too much of an advantage and ultimately homogenizes gameplay at the latter end of the game's lifetime. A year or two after release, you will be left with nothing but maxed out characters who have maximum certifications and no weaknesses in their certification tree. This discourages new players from entering the game, as it will take them an exorbitant amount of time to reach veteran status.

I believe that certifications should have a capped amount that one can achieve; it should be a number decided upon by the development team that allows an individual to "max" maybe four "play styles" and an arbitrary number of weapons and gadgets. For example's sake, let's say twenty-five.

When I say a maximum of four "play styles," I am specifically referring to combinations of classes and vehicles. Play styles would include the six infantry classes, light ground vehicles, heavy ground vehicles, light aircraft, and heavy aircraft. So, someone who is really into infantry combat may choose to max out four different infantry classes. Or maybe someone wants to max out light and heavy ground vehicles, heavy assault, and engineer. What this essentially says is that you can either choose to specialize in a few core areas of the game, or you can spread out your certifications so you can be a more flexible player who can cover more roles. I think this provides a more even footing in the long run; no one person can be maxed out in every single certification, as they must choose a specific path they want to take as a player.

The same logic would apply for weaponry. To have maximized certifications in each weapon is insane; you ultimately end up with veteran players having a raw power advantage over new players, simply because they have the most decked out weapons available in the game. I believe that by capping the number of certifications one can spend on weapons, you are again forcing specialization of roles so players cannot realistically be "the best" at every single weapon and gadget in the game. I believe this would end up following along the same lines as the aforementioned cap on maximized "play styles." You would end up with people spending certifications specializing in their preferred tank's weapon systems, their top five to ten infantry weapons, and top used gadgets for their infantry classes and vehicles. Again, you are offering players the opportunity to either specialize or diversify depending on their preferences.

Now that I've kind of outlined some thoughts on the subject, I guess I'd like to explain the rationale behind it. Like the OP said, I think it's kind of silly to allow everyone to ultimately achieve maximum specialization in every single weapon and class in the game.

To me, it makes more sense to offer a capped certification count to create meaningful role assignments in the game. If everyone can perform every role in the game, I think it kind of defeats the purpose of having progression elements in the first place. To me, it would make more sense to allow everyone to use every game feature available, but individuals would ultimately have to decide what their favorite roles are and spend their certification points on those roles to become better suited to performing them. Creating demand for particular roles in the game is healthy to promote more teamwork among each faction's population, rather than having particular groups becoming insulated due to their ability to perform every role at its maximum potential.

I guess it's just some longing for more MMORPG elements in the game. I just do not like the idea of "maxing" every certification and having nothing left to aspire to.



The current certification system allows you to maximize everything, thus the logic is that certification resets will not be available under the current iteration of the system. However, they do not seem firmly decided on the issue; I think it's very likely beta opinions could sway the way certifications ultimately work, and whether or not certification resets are available. However, I recall from numerous interviews that Higby would only want to offer limited resets to prevent abuse of the system.

This was my exact fear coming from PS1 - Players who do put in the time to have a significant amount of specialization, in nearly everything perhaps, are going to have a tool for nearly every situation. This creates the "jack of all trades" situation - but in which the veteran player is actually pretty good at all of the things he wants to do.

It may not seem like a huge issue but in 6mo-1yr I wonder how far through the cert tree the hardcore players will end up. Designers say 3 years, which would be great, but can they tell the community in confidence "yes it will take the most hardcore of players 3 years at minimum to reach all or 90% maxed certs"? If they can, I'm cool with their system because I'm sure within 3 years they will add enough content to keep those hardcore players chasing the carrot, hopefully never being able to max out everything.

But if 3 years is a generous guess, and people end up maxing out as quick as battlefield games, I think there will be a serious problem with the game. One of the great and innovative things PS1 did that I feel many games missed, is leaving your role open ended. You got to choose your combat role. Certifications and that whole system made sense, you had to basically go get a license to do what you wanted to do. You had to get a more advanced license to do the really specialized stuff.

Earning and permanently unlocking things is ok, but if eventually people do unlock 75-90% of everything at peak, then they become able to counter whatever is going on in any fight. Vehicles? I'm certed in one way or another to kill em pretty good. Infantry? See above. MAXes or Air? See vehicles or infantry. On top of that, you'll be able to fly, drive or fight in or with specialized weapons and vehicles. It sounds like you get to have your cake and eat it too. Fun for some, but diminishes the need for teamwork over time. It might have sucked to not be able to counter armor or air, but thats why you were hopefully in a squad or platoon where a buddy did have the certs. Or at the very least someone near you... It gets easier to become a lone wolf over time if you unlock everything and get to keep it all.

Sure PS1 eventually did BR40, but the best days were before that. You had some basics everyone ran with, but past that you knew who the specialists were. Who the hardcore hackers were. Or who the best reaver pilots were. Or why that certain tank squad always seemed to best you. Outfits were known for their specialized roles they defined for themselves. It was a "player restriction that ultimately limited what you could do" but it worked for the better of the game! And the best part was... it was successful!

Players in PS1 didn't feel limited - they felt specialized and elite. This cert system has the potential to take it to the next level, the framework is there. It looks great from what I've seen and I love the depth. I think with the current system and amount of options that the PS2 team has come up with putting a cap on certs or battle ranks can be a good thing. Something that stimulates life into the game more so than allowing everyone to unlock everything - or to head in that direction at least.

Allow players to respec certain amount of points at a time on a timer and/or make it cost money, but cap it as Notturno said to "4 playstyles" or something close to that. I would say at max, a soldier should be able to do 50-65% of everything available in game. This would allow them to specialize deep enough while maintaining enough options to let them feel accomplished and veteran. As new content releases the cert cap will rise, but no one will ever be able to do everything - which will keep players playing as it means something and takes time to specialize into certain roles but once you earn the certs you can shift them around to dynamically change your playstyle.

Once you've maxed out or near maxed out everything in PS2, whats the point? Wait for new content? Again, this is unless the PS2 cert system really is 3 years worth of time to complete at launch... Beta will tell a lot. Can't wait to start playing and giving feedback.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by BillyBob

I can certainly see where OP is coming from, and being able to just jump into any vehicle and be able to drive or fly it certainly is a considerable step away from how it worked in the original PlanetSide.

However, I imagine I can also see why SOE would go this way with PS2.

Granting immediate use of all vehicles will make the game more accessible from an entry point perspective. It will allow players to very quickly get into the vehicle aspects of the game and figure out if it's something they think is fun and perhaps would like to specialize further in. If there is a vehicle-related role in the game suitable for you, you'll find it quicker and without having to spend certpoints.

Considering the speed with which people get cert points and that they'll never have to make a definite choice yes.


The problem with this argument is that players won't always be beginners and that this facilitates everyone getting the same super heavy setups.

Also, as OP mentioned, this is the way most FPS players are used to when it comes to vehicles in those modern shooters that have them. I think it's safe to say that a rather large number of new PS2 players will crossover from that specific category of games.

Being used to something is no reason to not ever get used to something else that might be more balanced or have other perfectly valid arguments for different design decisions in a different context.

It's always funny how PS2 is refered to as "another game from PS1", but when it's related to other games than PS1, it should all be the same to not alienate players...


...Uh...

From what little we've seen of the certification system in PS2, it seems pretty extensive. This could suggest that even though everyone and anyone could use any given vehicle, certing into it will still make a considerable difference and be something of true worth in terms of gameplay.

This whole argument of having to put specialisation in a class doesn't really hold up, because there's not going to be much difference between a specced and a non-specced player, remember? And over time, people get to have everything AND thus be good at everything...

Short term thinking was what got us over 150 CR5s in the past few days in one command channel, 75% or more of which are incapable of thinking because they reached CR5 too fast thanks to their zergfit and the increase in CEP gain (doubled) that became permanent at some point.

As for "respeccing" the cert points...I don't know. But if they would allow for it then my guess is there would most likely be a cost involved.

I would assume Station Cash or the Pro7 valuta yes.

In short, initial access is wide open (basic use of all vehicles), but most likely it's the cert points you put into the vehicles in question that will turn you into that highly specialized unit which for example your Outfit would need or your personal combat role would demand.

And over time in an overspecialised unit = a generalist.

If that's the case then I'm perfectly ok with it, as long as what you cert into really does matter and makes a considerable difference.

/BB

So you say it's fine that everyone can make a 'considerable difference' in every role over time (though we'll just have to see how considerable), JUST because it's a long way from now? Okay. Hypocritical, but okay.