Resources Changes will drastically increase problems with pupulation imbalance

[bashcannon]

hi,

I believe that the pending changes to the resource system will cause severe problems on servers with pupulation imbalance.
Armor and vehicles are very important in this game as they amplify the power of a single player. Well played armor can change the outcome of battles.

The major problem I see is that once vehicles and especially armor is very expesive only the faction that already dominates a continent will be able to draw armor and keep up a constant armor push. The other two faction that are pushed back, cannot afford anything and therefore are left to play as infantry and therefore be slaughtered by the vehicles of the dominant faction.
Up to now it was still possible for the dominated faction to gain enough resources (e.g. by fighting for the techplant close to their warpgate etc.)
to buy vehicles and turn it around. After these changes with ~400 resource costs for all vehicles the dominated factions will just have to wait until the dominant faction gets bored of hanging out at the the dominated warpgates and loggs of.


I see that vehicle spamming can be a problem, this however depends on the balance again. If we have equal spamming on both sides it can turn out to be a pretty epic and massive vehicle battle. The real problem is caused by one sided vehicle zergs, that slaughter everything in their way.
Therefore the upcoming changes do not solve, but worsen the problem IMO.

If one wants to reduce the number of vehicles on the battlefield one should do it equally for all factions. This can be achieved by increasing the respawn timer for all vehicles. This would achieve the desired sense of importance and priciness for vehicles without causing much imbalance.


I had by far the most fun as well as the hightest score per minute in well balanced battles, be it tank or infantry. Rolling with or getting crushed by the zerg is IMO either super boring or just frustrating.

For the sake of this game I hope that they will not go through with these changes.

Greetings Bashcannon

[camycamera]

the point of the changes was to reduce vehicle spam, yes. some the the prices made 0 sense: a MAX cost as much as a C4, REALLY?! not only would it reduce spam, but in a way it could increase performance.

The major problem I see is that once vehicles and especially armor is very expesive only the faction that already dominates a continent will be able to draw armor and keep up a constant armor push. The other two faction that are pushed back, cannot afford anything and therefore are left to play as infantry and therefore be slaughtered by the vehicles of the dominant faction.

this already happens. the factions that are being warpgated have very little resource gain, i believe it is like 5-10 resources per 5 minutes, not sure, but lets say it is that. once they spend all of those resources, you wont be able to pull anything. with the change in resource cost, the only thing it would do is limit how many things you can pull.


also, this being warpgated thing is a different thing entirely that isn't fleshed out just quite yet, because of a couple of things: 1. more continents 2. continent locking (and/or sanctuaries) 3. the ability to transport vehicles through warpgates (working warpgates; that glowing thingy in the middle of the warpgate is used to transport anything to other continents; it just doesn't work yet).


all of these were in the first planetside, and all of them are planned for in the future.

[GeoGnome]

Well the other thing is that these vehicles for the most part already cost a lot. I mean a sunderer already costs 400 Mech... and we are still able to pull plenty of Sunderers. And air just really didn't get much of a bump at all. I mean I pull suicide sunderers now... that isn't going to change.

Heck, the only thing that got an unnecessary bump is probably the Flash.

[Figment]

There are a lot of ways you can curtail the amount of vehicles:


- Make players select between options, on a far more permanent basis (certifications).

- Add stricter crew requirements (don't have people run off alone in crewable units).

- Increase default vehicle timer (doesn't affect inter-vehicle availability)

- Change when vehicle timer starts (upon spawning vehicle, upon losing vehicle)

- Reduce vehicle pad availability (increase logistics time from A to B)

- Reduce vehicle pad options (increase logistics time from A to B for target units only)

- Increase resource cost (current one - isn't a magical solution as it has implications for total numbers AND variety at once with varying results for winning and losing parties due to acquisition not being standardised).

- Funnel vehicles away from infantry areas by world design (finally being looked at)



The point of resources however, is to choke an enemy out of vehicles. The problem is that it can choke them a bit much.

[NewSith]

The funny thing is - I see no vehicle spam on Indar.

The problem is actually quite redundant, imo (just because of the lattice coming to Esa and Amerish in the nearest future) so I don't see ANY point in these changes. Except for maybe Galaxy should indeed cost less in comparison with other vehicles, since it is completely underutilized.

[Figment]

Newsith, you recon the lattice may have increased the attrition on the opposing forces?

[NewSith]

Originally Posted by Figment

Newsith, you recon the lattice may have increased the attrition on the opposing forces?

Exactly.

The lattice with all its "rush lanes" reduced the amount of free-roaming vehicles, thus, reducing the lifespan of a typical zergish tank/ESF/whatever.

EDIT: A guy from the OF said one very true thing:

A heavily restricted-by-resources (in terms of numbers) vehicle metagame is acceptable so long as that smaller force is still a force to be reckoned with. The proposed changes only inconvenience - they will not stop the zerg, they will not reduce numbers, and tanks are still toast if not in a zerg. They change nothing except to annoy people.

[Lucidius]

Posting this here since it's more fitting:

Originally Posted by Lucidius

Agreed, although I thought of a different system that could also augment that idea. Instead of resource increases I was thinking...what if vehicles received % decreases or increases based on where they are pulled?


Pulling ground vehicles at a base that is touching an enemy link: % increase to resource costs and or cooldown timer or if we keep the new resource costs, keep them at default cost.

Pulling ground vehicles at a base you do not own: bigger % to resource cost. (infil with squad beacon hacking a terminal and spawning an armor column behind the enemy at no penalty). Still do-able but the resource implications affect the overall length your ground forces can roll around in armor.

Pulling ground vehicles gets progressively cheaper the further away from the front lines you pull it to a certain amount. (Pull 1 tank per soldier at the base in a last ditch or they can pull 1 now and 1 later by spawning further back)

Pulling ground vehicles from the warpgates should be the cheapest. This way the faction isn't ENTIRELY screwed over by resource costs and can form up and push all together to gain more ground. If they fail this push then the siege mechanic still works. Outfits meeting up to form an armor convoy would benefit from this even if they are driving half of the map to their destination.

Could use this with the old numbers or the new numbers. Basically, if armor wants to reinforce a point they should fall back a link and drive back. Emergency pulling armor from a contested base is still possible but as a last ditch effort and not the optimal option. This might affect pub/zerg mentality as well as organized outfit mentality.

You would be trading reliability (units being able to pull armor more frequently) for effect (units spawning closer up or behind enemy lines). The candle that burns twice as bright lasts half as long.

[Ghodere]

Originally Posted by Figment

The point of resources however, is to choke an enemy out of vehicles. The problem is that it can choke them a bit much.

Very much so. Resources in their current form are either effectively unlimited or crippling, but never strategically meaningful. You can't cut off a force's resources decisively because they accumulate into a personal pool that most people will constantly have at maximum (and can use to pull a fully functional tank regardless of investment) and there'd be no way to do so anyways without slamming your way straight through the front lines to the enemy tech plant. It is essentially a purely personal annoyance because it doesn't stop the zerg from all pulling tanks at once.

It also needs to be kept in mind that, currently, if you don't own a mech-producing territory, or have the option to fight in one, you will earn the resources to pull an MBT once every 2 hours. With the proposed changes, this will become one MBT per ~4 hours.

Honestly I have no idea how to turn the personal resource system we have into something with depth, meaning and value, though I wouldn't say it can't be done.

[Shogun]

i think the ressource change is just temporary until the system gets overhauled.

the intention of ressources was, that they could be denied. but right now this is not reached by any tactical decisions, but automaticly when a faction gets the upper hand.

in the original design, a faction could decide to deny a ressource and go for all bases areas that give this ressource. that´s no longer possible. you have to conquer bases along the lattice lanes and can´t target bases based on their ressources.

so i think we need a totally new ressource system. something that is bound to the bases and not to individual players. like ntu in ps1 was. something that can be denied by cutting off a pipeline or draining a base. something the players can actively influence to get it back.
right now, when your faction is on the lose, and you run out of a ressource, there is nothing you can do to change that. and that´s frustrating and feels crippling. if i can´t do what i want to do in the game, and i can´t do anything about it but to wait on another continent where my faction has the upper hand, then there is something wrong.

[Figment]

It would be easier to just tie vehicle access to base facilities.

Kinda like tech in C&C.

(Note: I use C&C and not PS1 as a reference, because PS1 only used two of its structures for vehicle denial/access: DSC and Tech Plant).