TR air dominance getting out of hand (Connery)

phungus · 2013-07-11, 02:11 PM

I don't want to only have to fly my mossy, but unfortunately things have pretty much become that way on Connery. Or rather I can fly as a lone wolf A2A predator using overpowered A2Am with my mossy only; this is not a viable playstyle for my sythe or reaver (even if I shed A2Am and go for AB tanks). Every time I log in TR skys are choked with mosquitos, and flying over TR space guarantees continual striker locks making it next to impossible to enter TR territory. During prime time it seems there are more mosquitos on Indar then sythes and mossys combined, add this to the effect of strikers and it's just completely broken.

This isn't a L2P issue, I recently hit 40K SPH, unboosted durring regular XP earnings (not double XP); no one who's planning to respond with that standard L2P could achieve that in an ESF. I'm not the best, metalfig is certainly better then me, and there are many players (who even post on here) who are probably better then I am in an ESF (and certainly have better aim), but I am one of the top ESF pilots on Connery and I'm probably one of the best ESF pilots at all 3 ESFs as most of the really great ESF pilots focus on one of the ESFs and I fly all 3 quite a bit.

The problem isn't the mosquito either, the mossy is fine, the ESF balance is fine. The problem is the combination of TR ground AA being outright superior to the other factions (TR lockdown + the Vulcan + the Striker -- the NC and VS don't have anything that compares to any of those singularly, the fact TR get those three things combined is way over the top). The ground AA advantage TR has snowballs things, making more mossys in the air, and at a certain point the air game just becomes only about numbers. With how things work TR always has the numbers in terms of ESFs, and this just snowballs; meaning more VS and NC ESFs die compared to TR mossys, leaving more mossys in the air to create a vicious positive feedback loop.

This has been a growing problem but it's gotten completely out of hand the last couple of weeks. Right now there is not even the appearance of balance in the air game on Connery. TR has complete and utter dominance and it's really broken. I love flying my mosquito, but I'd also really like to be able to fly my sythe again.

NUKABAZOOKA · 2013-07-11, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by phungus

I don't want to only have to fly my mossy, but unfortunately things have pretty much become that way on Connery. Or rather I can fly as a lone wolf A2A predator using overpowered A2Am with my mossy only; this is not a viable playstyle for my sythe or reaver (even if I shed A2Am and go for AB tanks). Every time I log in TR skys are choked with mosquitos, and flying over TR space guarantees continual striker locks making it next to impossible to enter TR territory. During prime time it seems there are more mosquitos on Indar then sythes and mossys combined, add this to the effect of strikers and it's just completely broken.

This isn't a L2P issue, I recently hit 40K SPH, unboosted durring regular XP earnings (not double XP); no one who's planning to respond with that standard L2P could achieve that in an ESF. I'm not the best, metalfig is certainly better then me, and there are many players (who even post on here) who are probably better then I am in an ESF (and certainly have better aim), but I am one of the top ESF pilots on Connery and I'm probably one of the best ESF pilots at all 3 ESFs as most of the really great ESF pilots focus on one of the ESFs and I fly all 3 quite a bit.

The problem isn't the mosquito either, the mossy is fine, the ESF balance is fine. The problem is the combination of TR ground AA being outright superior to the other factions (TR lockdown + the Vulcan + the Striker -- the NC and VS don't have anything that compares to any of those singularly, the fact TR get those three things combined is way over the top). The ground AA advantage TR has snowballs things, making more mossys in the air, and at a certain point the air game just becomes only about numbers. With how things work TR always has the numbers in terms of ESFs, and this just snowballs; meaning more VS and NC ESFs die compared to TR mossys, leaving more mossys in the air to create a vicious positive feedback loop.

This has been a growing problem but it's gotten completely out of hand the last couple of weeks. Right now there is not even the appearance of balance in the air game on Connery. TR has complete and utter dominance and it's really broken. I love flying my mosquito, but I'd also really like to be able to fly my sythe again.

I think you're overstating the usefulness of the lockdown/burster combo. However, I will agree that it is a bit absurd that it is near mandatory for Scythes/Reavers to run flare in their utility slot, whereas most Mosquitos I've seen do not.

EvilNinjadude · 2013-07-11, 02:33 PM

Question: How much better is the Striker than the Annihilator?

EDIT: Okay, I checked the wiki... Striker locks on faster and deals more damage per magazine. Dammit, I knew I should have gotten the Striker instead.

Needs lower RoF, methinks?

blashyrk · 2013-07-11, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by phungus

The problem isn't the mosquito either, the mossy is fine, the ESF balance is fine. The problem is the combination of TR ground AA being outright superior to the other factions (TR lockdown + the Vulcan + the Striker -- the NC and VS don't have anything that compares to any of those singularly, the fact TR get those three things combined is way over the top).

I've taken this chunk out of context, I hope you won't mind. While I do believe Scythe and Mosquito are relatively balanced in comparison to each other, the Reaver however is not. Maybe on paper, but that winged Moskvitch is so easy to see, hear, and hit that its armor and DPS advantage is a non-factor unless they can somehow get the jump on an enemy unaware ESF. In fights on fair terms, it usually loses badly. Actually I think the Mossie is the best overall and quite a few Youtubers who are skilled pilots tend to agree on this.

I completely agree that TR G2A is second to none, though.

blashyrk · 2013-07-11, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by EvilNinjadude

Question: How much better is the Striker than the Annihilator?

EDIT: Okay, I checked the wiki... Striker locks on faster and deals more damage per magazine. Dammit, I knew I should have gotten the Striker instead.

Needs lower RoF, methinks?

The Striker, though very powerful, is most notorious for its missiles' ability to clip through whole mountains (either that or they follow your exact trajectory).

It is getting a change to the lock on mechanics in the ESF update, we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.

P.S. Sorry for the double post, I can't seem to find a way do delete it :/

phungus · 2013-07-11, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by NUKABAZOOKA

I think you're overstating the usefulness of the lockdown/burster combo. However, I will agree that it is a bit absurd that it is near mandatory for Scythes/Reavers to run flare in their utility slot, whereas most Mosquitos I've seen do not.

lockdown and vulcan's effect on the air game by themselves wouldn't be an issue. The fact TR get both these along with the stiker while the NC and VS get nothing to boost their AA just makes things out of wack - especially since it makes the Mossy number advantage snowball as more NC and VS ESFs die over time to ground fire - leaving more mossy in the air which increases TR air power. This is a classic vicsious positive feedback loop, and it's really obvious this is what's going on. This has created an even larger (and more damaging to game balance) vicious feedback loop where TR pilots are getting more experience and there are now considerably more decent and improving TR mossys in the air. I've really noticed this over the past couple weeks.

In terms of your second point, while it used to be true that mossys could get away with any utility and sythes and reavers were forced to use flares due to the striker, since A2Am were fixed all 3 ESFs are forced to load flares.

phungus · 2013-07-11, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by blashyrk

I've taken this chunk out of context, I hope you won't mind. While I do believe Scythe and Mosquito are relatively balanced in comparison to each other, the Reaver however is not. Maybe on paper, but that winged Moskvitch is so easy to see, hear, and hit that its armor and DPS advantage is a non-factor unless they can somehow get the jump on an enemy unaware ESF. In fights on fair terms, it usually loses badly. Actually I think the Mossie is the best overall and quite a few Youtubers who are skilled pilots tend to agree on this.

I think the reaver is inferior, but not by much, the V-thrust and extra dps are very good, just like the larger hitbox and lack of acceleration are really bad.

Personally I think ESF performance rests almost entirely on the player, their playstyle will dictate which ESF they find to be "the best". Any discrepencies in ESF balance would take minor tweaks to iron out, and really there are at least a hundred things that would be more important for the developers to focus on. The issues with air balance and why things are so broken right now rests squarely on TR having all the ground AA goodies and VS and NC having none. It's completely out of wack, and it's creating a vicious positive feedback loop that's only making things worse.

blashyrk · 2013-07-11, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by phungus

I think the reaver is inferior, but not by much, the V-thrust and extra dps are very good, just like the larger hitbox and lack of acceleration are really bad.

Personally I think ESF performance rests almost entirely on the player, their playstyle will dictate which ESF they find to be "the best". Any discrepencies in ESF balance would take minor tweaks to iron out, and really there are at least a hundred things that would be more important for the developers to focus on. The issues with air balance and why things are so broken right now rests squarely on TR having all the ground AA goodies and VS and NC having none. It's completely out of wack, and it's creating a vicious positive feedback loop that's only making things worse.

True, but TR players either aren't aware of the pain their AA causes, or they're simply playing dumb hoping that it will remain that way.

maradine · 2013-07-11, 03:15 PM

We finished up our Op last night early and took a small force into alts as TR on Connery for shits and giggles. Three of us dumped some SC in to Strikers. It is literally an entirely different world. Shit just melts. I had no idea farming the air could be that rewarding. No wonder TR always has the high ground on the southern ridge!

That said - as a pilot, I'm generally much more concerned when I come up against a BR100 Reaver jockey than a BR100 Mossie. I'm a traditional pilot - the Reaver's blatant defiance of physics is much harder for me to correctly react to then the Mossie's casual disregard for it.

So! Mixed bag. I think the TR are definitely winning the air game, but I don't think it's simply because the Mossie is a better sled. There's more to it than that.

I'd still take the Scythe over either of them - it feels the best in my hands, and it fits neatly under all the branches of Indar.

phungus · 2013-07-11, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by maradine

That said - as a pilot, I'm generally much more concerned when I come up against a BR100 Reaver jockey than a BR100 Mossie. I'm a traditional pilot - the Reaver's blatant defiance of physics is much harder for me to correctly react to then the Mossie's casual disregard for it.

I think you are flat out wrong here. I find pro sythes to be the most difficult to fight actually, due to their hitbox. And hoverduels are only one part of the air game, kind of minor actually. How ground AA effects the air game, and how TR mossy numbers snowball has a huge impact. What good are my superior hoverduel skills and the abilities of a Reaver if I'm always fighting 3v1? The air game playing as or against TR isn't even comperable anymore, they are completely different games and I really feel it needs to be fixed. And no, it has nothing to do with the ESF differences, it's all about TR ground AA being outright better, drastically so.

Kirotan · 2013-07-11, 03:34 PM

IMO the Reaver is the best ESF when you get into the top tier pilots. Beginners and intermediates will struggle with it, however. The size is countered by how nimble it is in a dogfight.

Also, the sound of the Vortek rotary gives me nightmares.

As for the Striker and lock-ons, I think it won't be so bad once they fix them going through terrain and pilots have a chance to use cover to evade the missile.

maradine · 2013-07-11, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by phungus

I think you are flat out wrong here. I find pro sythes to be the most difficult to fight actually, due to their hitbox. And hoverduels are only one part of the air game, kind of minor actually. How ground AA effects the air game, and how TR mossy numbers snowball has a huge impact. What good are my superior hoverduel skills and the abilities of a Reaver if I'm always fighting 3v1? The air game playing as or against TR isn't even comperable anymore, they are completely different games and I really feel it needs to be fixed. And no, it has nothing to do with the ESF differences, it's all about TR ground AA being outright better, drastically so.

I'm reasonably certain a personal opinion, which is what I presented, can't be "flat out wrong" by definition. I also specifically asserted that it was more complicated than any one factor, of which numbers is certainly part. Finally, I explicitly called out the ridiculousness of Striker teams as a contributing factor.

In summary: just what the hell post did you respond to? Or are you just contrary by inclination?

phungus · 2013-07-11, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by maradine

In summary: just what the hell post did you respond to? Or are you just contrary by inclination?

I am a contrarian by nature. I will be the first to play devil's advocate if the opportunity arises. Also people often frustrate me because they are so irrational, all of the time.... but that's another topic (it really gets interesting in terms of economics where we still operate under the assumption humans are rational actors when they most certainly are not!).

Also I think I misunderstood and thought you were trying to say the air game is balanced cause the mossy is the worst ESF. If you were not implying this, then OK. Like I've always said (at least since the change where weapons fired from the camera instead of the model's weapon) the ESFs are almost perfectly balanced in terms of strengths and weaknesses. Any ESF preference or perceived "betterness" will be do to player behaviors and how these interact with the different ESF strengths and weaknesses.

EvilNinjadude · 2013-07-11, 04:36 PM

Ya know what, Phungus, I actually kinda agree with you here. TR have good AA options (Burster bonus, Striker, and Vulcan). Plus now that people know they're good (or bugged) more people will use them, leading to NC and VS getting even more upset.

I think if buggy clipping, hell yes fix it. As for the vulcan... lower maximum elevation? That sounds like a brilliant idea. Focus on role AV weapon, make max elevation of 30 degrees or something? I like that idea.

snafus · 2013-07-11, 05:09 PM

Though experience may vary. I get just as many lock ons during my time in an Scythe or Reaver as I do during my TR play. But the one big difference was the overall effectiveness of the stryker which with it being broke only makes worse. But I would also add it seems NC and VS don't put as much emphasis on ESF as the TR do. I know the theory is ground based fire influences that but I feel there is other factors to.

Truthfully I think it is more outfit oriented why there isn't as much VS/NC ESF up. NC used to swarm us but with certain key outfits not being as active, I have seen a massive reduction in their active air wings. While TR outfits have been working on building theirs up. Obviously the argument could be made that AA drove them away but most that I speak to are simply bored.

Honestly I think TR just has more people that want to be dedicated fliers. We may not have to deal with strykers but the other A2G missile still do considerable damage. And share some of the same tracking bugs that all missile seem to have.