Nerfing the Reverse Manuver

[Hamma]

Those of you who are unaware they have implemented a nerf to the reverse maneuver on Public Test. What is the reverse maneuver you ask? Check the video below:

This is a maneuver that makes aircraft pretty hard to hit and allows them ways to really get out of tough situations. This particular maneuver is not really that easy to do, and requires an aspect of player skill in order to master.

Do you think SOE should be nerfing aspects of the game that require skill and patience to master especially in a game destined for eSports? Is it a mistake to make some aspects of the game easily accessible to the masses?

By the way here is the patch notes from test: http://wiki.planetside-universe.com/...e_(2013/08/01)

New ESF Weapons and Reverse Thrust Tweaks

• We’re also trying out a change to the lift factor granted by afterburners when in hover mode. We’ve reduced it from a factor of 8 to a factor of 2. This should make the reverse thrust still doable but will lower its abruptness and diminish your top speed while doing so.

[NoXousX]

This subject has been beat to death, and there are two sets of opinions:

Opinion #1 (experienced pilots and players that generally value skill and dedication):

• Leave it alone.
• It won't help new players.
• The manevuers add depth to gameplay.
• Nerfing it won't help bads become good suddenly.

Opinion #2

• It's hard.
• I can't do it.
• I don't fly.

Sorry for the sarcastic answer but seriously... this change won't help new players. It simply won't. It will dumb down dogfighting and upset experienced players.



Copy/paste from the forums:
Even if they go through with these changes, they won't help new players. An ESF pilot takes probably a good 40+ hours of play to even be a threat. It takes hundreds of hours to "master," and by master I mean think you've mastered it. The reality is good pilots are always improving, and that will forever stack against new players.

I have 24,000 kills in an ESF, and almost 346 hours. How long will it take for a new player to be a threat against me withor without these changes? It will take them months.

I would break down ESF success as follows:
1) Situational Awareness/Air Sense: 50% (the hardest thing to learn)
2) Aim 25%
3) Aircraft control 25%

If you take a new player and give them excellent aim and excellent aircraft control, they will still get farmed and killed. The hardest thing to learn is #1. Knowing when to retreat, when afterburner, fly low, fly high, be aggresssive etc etc... now THAT takes a lot of time to master and no amount of changes will affect that. New ESF pilots CAN be successful. I've seen players go from straight up noob status to quite the threat, and I've progressively watched them improve. The one thing they all have in common is they fly A LOT. A few of them I've even let fly off and live because I respect what they are up against. But what have they done different than the average "flying is too hard" whiner? They dedicated the time, certs, and effort to be great. The learning curve is steep, but so is the payoff. Soleks for example was scrounging around for tips a long time ago, and he has drastically improved. I always watched him fly and now he's a prominent reaver threat who is fun to run and gun with.

A bit off topcic there, but lets say hypothetically this change does goes through... new ESF pilots are still going to get absolutely obliterated. Stack that with the fact that lock-on weapons are rampant, flares aren't baseline, good ESFs takes 5k certs minimum, and good players will always be around to mop them up. All the odds are against them. This change won't help them. It will only negatively impact the versatility, the freedom, and the depth of combat ESF pilots enjoy, and the skill-gap. Many of us have spent months mastering the hover mode, and the maneuvers it brings are used in far more than just air to air combat.

I really don't want to start my sentences with "remember the good days when ESFs..." I can't stress enough how BAD and borderline insulting these changes will be to every decent pilot in this game that sunk too much time dealing with this nonstop bipolar balancing. It's too late in the game to make a change like this, and there is nothing to make up for it.

[KesTro]

Originally Posted by NoXousX

This subject has been beat to death, and there are two sets of opinions:

Yeah, completely ignore any reasons stated for the latter.

[Hamma]

It's been beaten to death for sure - just trying to consolidate the beating. :P

[Fenrys]

I think its a good change, it will improve faction v faction balance, it will provide incentive to use diverse loadouts, and I hope they go through with it. At the moment there is little reason to fly anything but a Reaver with Vortek, Hover Stability, and AB Tank.

[DirtyBird]

Unwelcome changes come and go, the game moves on.
Pilots should just enjoy the farm while the placebo effect lasts.

[Javelin]

My 2 cents from the O-PS2 forums

Originally Posted by Javelin6

Every time a "l33t" ESF pilot has shed a tear over a change to their playstyle, it has been good for the game.

• Rocket pod nerf.
• Flak/Skyguard changes.
• Thermal/NV vehicle sight changes.
• MBT armor improvements.
• Deconstruction changes.
• XP from "bailers".

The takeaway here is, you will adapt as you always have and the game will be better for everyone else.

Stand by for incoming rage.

[Purestorm]

The biggest problem is that in order to have a decent chance of winning a 1v1 fight against a good pilot, you have to know this one maneuver. The ESF metagame should not be entirely built around having Hover frame and being able to perform a certain maneuver.

[camycamera]

hm, i have never used that manuever before, but now it looks like i wont be able to use it effectively if i were to learn of it later :/

[Varsam]

I can see the value of both sides of this argument. I think new flyers need some help to make them more competitive (and make the air game less alienating for them), but I also don't think shackling the older players is the way to go.

[PredatorFour]

Originally Posted by Purestorm

The biggest problem is that in order to have a decent chance of winning a 1v1 fight against a good pilot, you have to know this one maneuver. The ESF metagame should not be entirely built around having Hover frame and being able to perform a certain maneuver.

Altho the move is visually impressive, it can be countered easy by just taking the fight to them. They fly backwards? You chase them. They shoot ? You spin/dodge. You don't have to know the move to be good against 'leet' pilots who think moving backwards makes them awesome.

I think the move is for the better. This is a nerf to hover frame really and i think what they need to do is buff racer frame (increase top speed) and then we might have some decent choices to make with air frame loadouts and some variety.

You can still do the reverse move anyway just not as good and i'm sure decent pilots will still be able to use this to their advantage.

[NoXousX]

Originally Posted by Varsam

I can see the value of both sides of this argument. I think new flyers need some help to make them more competitive (and make the air game less alienating for them), but I also don't think shackling the older players is the way to go.

I guess my biggest point is, how MUCH will gutting the dozens of maneuvers hover mode allows players to perform actually help a new player? Because I don't think it will. Going hover and holding spacebar while pitching down during an afterburner doesn't make you good. I see the maneuver used inappropriately all the time. It's a tool, and it is generally used more properly by experienced players. Without it, lackluster players won't become better. They still don't have situational awareness. They still don't have experience, and they still can't aim or control their aircraft worth a damn. Flying isn't casual-friendly in ANY game. Look at battlefield. Look at Planetside 1. It took years for the average players be worth a damn in the air.. years. Hell the powerslide maneuver which I guess you could equate to the "reverse maneuver" didn't become prevalent until like 2006.

What other aspect of the game makes you as vulnerable as an aircraft? What other aspect of the game do you have to worry about constantly extending beyond safe territory, conservings your cool downs strictly, knowing whether to flare now, or wait 3-4 seconds in hopes of not taking any more damage, knowing when to drive on or when to run, know if it's even worth running? You have to track AA sources, lock-on ranges, line of sight, other aircraft, altitude. Hell at high levels even the profile of your aircraft relative to the enemy. If vanguards are around I turn away from them in such a way to limit my profile as to not get gibbed. I didn't start doing that until probably hour 150. There is an information overload when flying that requires quick and almost instinctual processing that simply takes a long ass time to get down.

Flying in comparison to everything else is fast-paced and totally unforgiving. The high risk/high reward playstyle. Nerfing a maneuver doesn't change that.

In the end they can buff AA all they want, they can nerf maneuvers, they can make any change they want. But ace pilots will ALWAYS farm the sky. That's what they do. That's their specialty. They capitalize on every single little detail and they are good because of it.

[Redshift]

It's just going to make dog fighting a case of who get's behind who first.

Mind you i think they're going to remove any semblance of skill from dog fighting next patch anyway, with the two of the new ESF weapons... the locust guns actually say "the high rate of fire and spread means aiming is irrelevent"

[Goliith]

Originally Posted by Redshift

the locust guns actually say "the high rate of fire and spread means aiming is irrelevent"

While that may be true, it does not mean that it is in anyway SUPERIOR. In fact, it just means that its easier to get *hits* which doesn't mean you will win, or even have an advantage. It's easier to *Hit* someone with a shotgun, but you still have to land a lot of pellets to *Kill* them.

I'm not saying they aren't a no-skill weapon, because that's exactly what they are. But if you can fly and aim, your rotary will rip them to ribbons before their spray'n'pray can drop you 20% even if they CAN aim. Unless they somehow ambush you at such a close range that their RoF wins out with a high accuracy at close range. (AKA a shotgun kill-11 shots hitting at once with crap long range performance)


On Topic: The proposed nerf doesn't personally effect me, as I haven't gotten a ton of air time in my mossie yet, and I mostly just fly to provide my buddy a wing man, as he is a far superior pilot to myself, as such I don't yet know how to perform the maneuver, I'm fairly decent at dog fighting without it, although I don't particularly enjoy stand still hover dog fights, it's just not fun, entertaining, or enjoyable to flip about in circles playing bullet roulette with my opponent. I enjoy myself many times more playing in a more traditional role pilot where you zoom in on someone and attempt to take them out in a single pass, and keep on flying if you fail, or loop about for a second attack, not come up behind him. Perhaps my bias is just due to a lack of experience as a pilot in PS2. All things aside, I don't believe the maneuver should be REMOVED but I feel it should be an option to you, such that should you encounter a pilot who is geared towards hover flight/backwards maneuvers, you should be able to fight on your terms or escape with the greater speed you offer from a more traditional loadout.

TLDR: It doesn't effect me personally as I don't use it, but the option should remain and I WANT MY AB TANK CERTS!

[snafus]

Originally Posted by NoXousX

This subject has been beat to death, and there are two sets of opinions:

Opinion #1 (experienced pilots and players that generally value skill and dedication):

• Leave it alone.
• It won't help new players.
• The manevuers add depth to gameplay.
• Nerfing it won't help bads become good suddenly.

Opinion #2

• It's hard.
• I can't do it.
• I don't fly.

Sorry for the sarcastic answer but seriously... this change won't help new players. It simply won't. It will dumb down dogfighting and upset experienced players.



Copy/paste from the forums:
Even if they go through with these changes, they won't help new players. An ESF pilot takes probably a good 40+ hours of play to even be a threat. It takes hundreds of hours to "master," and by master I mean think you've mastered it. The reality is good pilots are always improving, and that will forever stack against new players.

I have 24,000 kills in an ESF, and almost 346 hours. How long will it take for a new player to be a threat against me withor without these changes? It will take them months.

I would break down ESF success as follows:
1) Situational Awareness/Air Sense: 50% (the hardest thing to learn)
2) Aim 25%
3) Aircraft control 25%

If you take a new player and give them excellent aim and excellent aircraft control, they will still get farmed and killed. The hardest thing to learn is #1. Knowing when to retreat, when afterburner, fly low, fly high, be aggresssive etc etc... now THAT takes a lot of time to master and no amount of changes will affect that. New ESF pilots CAN be successful. I've seen players go from straight up noob status to quite the threat, and I've progressively watched them improve. The one thing they all have in common is they fly A LOT. A few of them I've even let fly off and live because I respect what they are up against. But what have they done different than the average "flying is too hard" whiner? They dedicated the time, certs, and effort to be great. The learning curve is steep, but so is the payoff. Soleks for example was scrounging around for tips a long time ago, and he has drastically improved. I always watched him fly and now he's a prominent reaver threat who is fun to run and gun with.

A bit off topcic there, but lets say hypothetically this change does goes through... new ESF pilots are still going to get absolutely obliterated. Stack that with the fact that lock-on weapons are rampant, flares aren't baseline, good ESFs takes 5k certs minimum, and good players will always be around to mop them up. All the odds are against them. This change won't help them. It will only negatively impact the versatility, the freedom, and the depth of combat ESF pilots enjoy, and the skill-gap. Many of us have spent months mastering the hover mode, and the maneuvers it brings are used in far more than just air to air combat.

I really don't want to start my sentences with "remember the good days when ESFs..." I can't stress enough how BAD and borderline insulting these changes will be to every decent pilot in this game that sunk too much time dealing with this nonstop bipolar balancing. It's too late in the game to make a change like this, and there is nothing to make up for it.

Couldn't agree more Nouxous, I just hope they go through with consulting top tier pilots before implementing the changes in the future.