Bring Back the Old Factions and Pre-Nerf Game!

HiroshiChugi · 2013-12-03, 06:08 PM

So I've decided that something is game-breaking: faction bonuses. For those of you that don't know what I mean, I'm talking about the NC hitting the hardest, the TR having the biggest clips, and the VS having no bullet drop. Two of these three are actually in in the game, and guess which ones. That's right, I'm talking about the NC not having their faction bonus anymore. Through my entirety of playing this game for about a year or so, I only remember having that faction bonus in the first three months of the game, and that's stretching it. Yes, the NC hit the hardest, but we also had the slowest firing rate. And now, we just have the slowest firing rate, no damage bonus whatsoever. I know I know, I sound like a typical NC dumb@$$ who doesn't know what he's talking about, but hang in there with me for a few minutes of your time. Before you ask, yes, I've played each of the three factions and guess what: I did 10 times better with them STOCK than I did with my NC that's certed up. In fact, when I was playing Vanu, I felt like I was hacking! I mean come on, using the jet-pack on my LA while hip-firing and NEVER missing a shot with my VS alt? That's a bit too much if you ask me.

Onto the next subject: Pre-Nerf gameplay. While speaking to some of my outfit mates on Mumble, I've found several things that are missed dearly that were nerfed to hell by the devs. The list is as follows:

1.: Under-Barrel Grenade Launcher: I'm perfectly fine with the splash radius nerf and hell, even timing nerf. But, the arc of the nade nerf?! What the hell? I can't aim it at all anymore for months now. Hell, even if it got a total damage nerf to it, I'd be perfectly happy with it as long as it got its old arc back.
2.: HE Tank Guns: Wtf? You nerf them JUST BECAUSE 8-Year-Old-CoD-Playing-Kids can't go out barely out of the way to cert into Flak Armour? Really SOE, really? -__-" It's called HIGH EXPLOSIVE for a reason!
3.: Phoenix and Lancer: Really The Lancer was perfectly fine and so was the Phoenix. So you're telling me that I can't head shot an INFANTRY PERSONNEL with a f*cking ROCKET LAUNCHER?!?!? And the Striker, don't even get me started on that thing... I'm fine with the damage it has and even the multiple rockets per clip, but please, just PLEASE bring it down to three rockets per clip instead of 5!
4: The Vulcan: An Anti-Armour minigun?!?!? I'm so perfectly OK and fine with its fire rate, and I think it could even use a boost to about 100 rounds per clip for its base clip size, but make it unable to damage armour! It's more of an anti-infantry weapon anyways. I mean yes, make it able to damage Flashes, Harassers, and ESFs, but not Lightnings, Sunderers, MBTs, Liberators, and Galaxies! Nerf it to what I said, and give the Marauder an anti-armour buff.

Thank you for reading, there will be more to come soon.

NewSith · 2013-12-03, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by HiroshiChugi

Onto the next subject: Pre-Nerf gameplay. While speaking to some of my outfit mates on Mumble, I've found several things that are missed dearly that were nerfed to hell by the devs. The list is as follows:

1.: Under-Barrel Grenade Launcher: I'm perfectly fine with the splash radius nerf and hell, even timing nerf. But, the arc of the nade nerf?! What the hell? I can't aim it at all anymore for months now. Hell, even if it got a total damage nerf to it, I'd be perfectly happy with it as long as it got its old arc back.
2.: HE Tank Guns: Wtf? You nerf them JUST BECAUSE 8-Year-Old-CoD-Playing-Kids can't go out barely out of the way to cert into Flak Armour? Really SOE, really? -__-" It's called HIGH EXPLOSIVE for a reason!
3.: Phoenix and Lancer: Really The Lancer was perfectly fine and so was the Phoenix. So you're telling me that I can't head shot an INFANTRY PERSONNEL with a f*cking ROCKET LAUNCHER?!?!? And the Striker, don't even get me started on that thing... I'm fine with the damage it has and even the multiple rockets per clip, but please, just PLEASE bring it down to three rockets per clip instead of 5!
4: The Vulcan: An Anti-Armour minigun?!?!? I'm so perfectly OK and fine with its fire rate, and I think it could even use a boost to about 100 rounds per clip for its base clip size, but make it unable to damage armour! It's more of an anti-infantry weapon anyways. I mean yes, make it able to damage Flashes, Harassers, and ESFs, but not Lightnings, Sunderers, MBTs, Liberators, and Galaxies! Nerf it to what I said, and give the Marauder an anti-armour buff.

Thank you for reading, there will be more to come soon.

1. UBGL should be plain removed from the game. Reasoning? Because there's no way to balance a weapon that is supposed to blow enemies to pieces, while handled by a single person, not having any ammo limits, and capable of being distributed to every player on the whole Auraxis.
2. Back to number limits again. The nerf was done not because one grunt dies to one tank. It was because 3 prowlers on a hill with visibility over any significant strategic location would pretty much deny the entire area, while staying at the edge of rendering distance. (I forsee you saying "OMG, why won't you just spawn on the other base and etc?" The answer is - I would rather move to another continent wher my empire is winning and take an HE tank so I can do what these guys are doing, since it's alot easier and much more fun that way.)
3. Here's a true statement, but reality is - if your goal is close-to-realistic TTK, there's no way to balance anything properly, since the highest bar in this situation is OSOK with the weakest sidearm.
4. Same thing as above.

Overall you are obviously forgetting that the game is too scalable, and that's why what works in 1v1 may be OP in 1v100 and vice versa, a thing that works properly when used en masse may aswell be utter shit in 1v1.

GreyFrog · 2013-12-03, 08:30 PM

Did they make NC guns do less damage just prior to release? As far as I can tell they still have the hardest hitting guns in the game.

600dmg a rocket and 3 rockets for the striker kind of makes sense. Although I looked forward to a complete overhaul of lock ons instead.

Vulcan with the same dmg per clip and RoF it currently has but 100 rounds might work to limit its brutal TTK close range. Its TR's AV secondary though and referring to your first post, completely fits the faction bonuses.

AThreatToYou · 2013-12-03, 09:29 PM

As I see it, the NC's factional bonus thing is in the game well enough.

Building on the idea, though, brings up a problem: Players already die in too few bullets from any weapon, whether NC or not. Essentially, a player's HP pool is such that increasing the damage per shot of many weapons does not really increase TTK (i.e. effectiveness) until it passes a certain threshold (close range, of course). High alpha weapons do gain somewhat of a bonus in long range scenarios, where the damage reduction over range will be less likely to cut the kill threshold in X amount of bullets, because each bullet does more damage.

In a kill-for-kill scenario, it's not so bad.
In PS2's capture mechanic scenario, it is bad because the high alpha benefits at long range whereas the majority of infantry fights will be happening in absurd close range around the capture points that determine victory or defeat. Then we NC have shotguns... which is great! But that's a real problem...

In order for NC shotguns and rockets and cannons to so much better than their counterparts to make a difference, they reach the one-shot-one-kill threshold. And this is UN-FUN AND SHOULD NOT BE IN PS2 because it creates scenarios where the enemy has no time to react. 1HK's are bad. Ergo, NC are fucked over by PS2's short TTK.

Can we fix this? Nope. Not without doing stuff like doubling infantry HP or halving infantry weapon damage per shot. If we did that though, the NC would have the "Alpha" advantage, where they could kill enemies with minimal exposure time, as they can retreat to cover in between the long-reloading, but high-alpha shots.

In PS1, NC vehicles had a synergy between their high-alpha vehicle weapons and faster accelerating vehicles. In PS2 we do not have this. So, again NC is fucked over by having the slowest MBT.

I really don't get why TR have the faster and lighter armored vehicles, either. If you have a weapon with a high ROF but a low alpha, you typically would want it on a vehicle that suffers less from the prolonged engagement time it needs to make use of its DPS. So ideally it would have more armor, and does not need to be faster for its high ROF will adjust for its loss of accuracy at range.

Not the PS2's balance can't work, it's just not set up logically.

evidence: World of Tanks alpha meta

KesTro · 2013-12-03, 11:11 PM

I know you didn't say it but I feel the need to address this issue as your future Space President. OP not now or ever has spoken for the NC as a whole and we as a faction can neither deny or support his claims. Thank you for your time we will be serving certs at Allatum in the days that are to follow.

Long Live Auraxis!

Emperor Newt · 2013-12-04, 05:56 AM

Most of the problems comes down to one problem: low infantry ttk. Unless they change that, which I doubt they will, the problems will remain and never go away. They wanted their Battlefield on steroids. Now that they have it they have to deal with it.

Well, for a start they could simply remove HE and UBGL... the rage... the rage...

Ghoest9 · 2013-12-04, 06:32 AM

The majority of the weapons balanced over all and balance is better than uniqueness.
It breaks down a bit at long ranges 0- but as most players can attest since the majority of killing takes place at medium short ranges or with the dedicated sniper rifles its not a big issue over all.

It makes more sense to talk about specific weapons that have issues than about over all faction themes.

BlaxicanX · 2013-12-04, 09:37 PM

The problem with NC weaponry is that its "faction bonus" (high damage, high-recoil, low RoF, low clip-size) is pretty much mathematically less competitive than its opposite: high RoF, high clip-size, low damage low recoil. Low TTK is partially to blame for that (as it makes increased weapon damage beyond a certain point diminishing returns), as well as low-recoil/high-clip weapons simply being much more forgiving for players to use.

HiroshiChugi · 2013-12-04, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by NewSith

1. UBGL should be plain removed from the game. Reasoning? Because there's no way to balance a weapon that is supposed to blow enemies to pieces, while handled by a single person, not having any ammo limits, and capable of being distributed to every player on the whole Auraxis.
2. Back to number limits again. The nerf was done not because one grunt dies to one tank. It was because 3 prowlers on a hill with visibility over any significant strategic location would pretty much deny the entire area, while staying at the edge of rendering distance. (I forsee you saying "OMG, why won't you just spawn on the other base and etc?" The answer is - I would rather move to another continent wher my empire is winning and take an HE tank so I can do what these guys are doing, since it's alot easier and much more fun that way.)

I'm guessing you never certed into Flak Armour? Flak Armour EASILY countered these weapons with an extremely simple finesse.

Badjuju · 2013-12-05, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by HiroshiChugi

So I've decided that something is game-breaking: faction bonuses. For those of you that don't know what I mean, I'm talking about the NC hitting the hardest, the TR having the biggest clips, and the VS having no bullet drop. Two of these three are actually in in the game, and guess which ones. That's right, I'm talking about the NC not having their faction bonus anymore. Through my entirety of playing this game for about a year or so, I only remember having that faction bonus in the first three months of the game, and that's stretching it. Yes, the NC hit the hardest, but we also had the slowest firing rate. And now, we just have the slowest firing rate, no damage bonus whatsoever. I know I know, I sound like a typical NC dumb@$$ who doesn't know what he's talking about, but hang in there with me for a few minutes of your time. Before you ask, yes, I've played each of the three factions and guess what: I did 10 times better with them STOCK than I did with my NC that's certed up. In fact, when I was playing Vanu, I felt like I was hacking! I mean come on, using the jet-pack on my LA while hip-firing and NEVER missing a shot with my VS alt? That's a bit too much if you ask me.

Onto the next subject: Pre-Nerf gameplay. While speaking to some of my outfit mates on Mumble, I've found several things that are missed dearly that were nerfed to hell by the devs. The list is as follows:

1.: Under-Barrel Grenade Launcher: I'm perfectly fine with the splash radius nerf and hell, even timing nerf. But, the arc of the nade nerf?! What the hell? I can't aim it at all anymore for months now. Hell, even if it got a total damage nerf to it, I'd be perfectly happy with it as long as it got its old arc back.
2.: HE Tank Guns: Wtf? You nerf them JUST BECAUSE 8-Year-Old-CoD-Playing-Kids can't go out barely out of the way to cert into Flak Armour? Really SOE, really? -__-" It's called HIGH EXPLOSIVE for a reason!
3.: Phoenix and Lancer: Really The Lancer was perfectly fine and so was the Phoenix. So you're telling me that I can't head shot an INFANTRY PERSONNEL with a f*cking ROCKET LAUNCHER?!?!? And the Striker, don't even get me started on that thing... I'm fine with the damage it has and even the multiple rockets per clip, but please, just PLEASE bring it down to three rockets per clip instead of 5!
4: The Vulcan: An Anti-Armour minigun?!?!? I'm so perfectly OK and fine with its fire rate, and I think it could even use a boost to about 100 rounds per clip for its base clip size, but make it unable to damage armour! It's more of an anti-infantry weapon anyways. I mean yes, make it able to damage Flashes, Harassers, and ESFs, but not Lightnings, Sunderers, MBTs, Liberators, and Galaxies! Nerf it to what I said, and give the Marauder an anti-armour buff.

Thank you for reading, there will be more to come soon.

Lol majority of these changes happened because they were terrible game design. They were absolutely silly, unbalanced, and cheesy the way they were. No game is balanced upon releases and this was no exception. Balance changes will continue and for the better.

It seems you are a fan of cheesy farm weapons which are more about gaining effortless kills than providing balanced game play. Something that drove much of the player base away early in the games life. We hated it, we told SOE we hated it, glad to see it changed.

Btw NC not only has some of the hardest hitting weapons, it has some of the fastest firing.

This seems more like a grass is greener thread than an intuitive balance thread.

Badjuju · 2013-12-05, 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by HiroshiChugi

I'm guessing you never certed into Flak Armour? Flak Armour EASILY countered these weapons with an extremely simple finesse.

Flack shouldn't be a requirement to step out of your spawn room, and you still got obliterated anyways by the next round. HE rounds are still very effective with out completely undermining any chance of having consistent infantry combat.

BeyondNinja · 2013-12-05, 01:51 AM

From my experience both HE rounds and the UBGL were (over)nerfed because they were ridiculously spammable by 1 loadout/playstyle (i.e. engineers and Prowlers), but as a result became all-but useless for every other playstyle.

The UBGL is now purely a gimmick for the LA because of the pitiful ammo capacity.
Yes you can find good camping spots to flank and get a few cheap kills but because there aren't any destructible walls etc for it to serve as a utility its ultimately a gimmick.

The HE cannon is still viable on Lightnings and Lockdown Prowlers (I say viable, not necessarily that its a great choice) but its utterly pointless on the Vanguard and Magrider because of their insanely slow reload speeds. It was never all that great on the Vanguard and Magrider to begin with but because of the Prowler's infantry farming prowess it was nerfed into the ground for everyone.

Bring back HE rounds but give some semblance of balance between the 3 factions HE tanks, because the Vanguard already has a useless AI secondary.

As for the UBGL, imo the ridiculous change to velocity/arc was totally unnecessary.
My soldier could throw the 40mm grenade further and harder by hand.
Instead of that they could have easily fixed UBGL spam by making it not receive ammo from ammo packs and make it costs resources like every other infantry explosive (rockets notwithstanding so warpgated infantry have a chance against vehicles) but actually giving a reasonable starting supply of ammo i.e 4 or 5 instead of just 2 grenades.

BlaxicanX · 2013-12-05, 07:44 PM

I don't see heat rounds needing a buff anytime soon. They're still pretty much the most popular tank weapons in the game across all factions, while AP rounds remain the least used.