This game just became officially p2w

Rolfski · 2014-07-02, 06:35 AM

From the patch notes:

"All infantry and MAX weapon attachments are now purchasable with Station Cash. Like the existing weapon optics, any attachment purchased with station cash will be unlocked account wide."

Meaning you can buy straight power/upgrades with cash now. Even Smedley admitted: "For those of you using the slippery slope argument ok. I agree. It is a slippery slope."

Needless to say, this is a very bad direction for a game that has a reputation to hold up for not being p2w.
Giving this game a bad p2w reputation, while there are still so many other revenue ways to exploit (name change/ server change tokens, anyone?) is not a smart move with a PS4 launch coming up.

Figment · 2014-07-02, 06:38 AM

Not pay to win if you can unlock it through gameplay tbh.

Pay to speed up progress, more like.

War Barney · 2014-07-02, 06:47 AM

Hmmm its getting close to p2w at the very least, I guess it depends if your definition of p2w is using money to buy power via items its impossible to get any other way than paying money, or if its just being allowed to use money to buy things which give you an advantage.

Myself I'm not sure... I'd prefer if they didn't let you pay SC as well as it really is at least teetering on the line of p2w BUT its 100 certs for attatchments so it takes like an hour of playing to unlock stuff.

HOWEVER MAX unlocks though NOT be included, I don't know about other factions but for the NC extrended mags are absolutely essential for our guns to be useful and thats 500 certs, and often slugs are vital as well (if you want a range over 5m) which is I think 250 certs, so thats 1500 certs which give you a very definite boost in power.

One question though.. does account wide mean if I buy a laser sight with SC its unlocked for EVERY weapon on EVERY faction? if so that is a bit of a game changer as suddenly its 1000s of certs worth of stuff your getting.

Rolfski · 2014-07-02, 06:57 AM

Whether or not it's strictly p2w depends on the definition of p2w, which is a never ending discussion.

What's more important however is the perception of being p2w. Every single article around this game has always a big p2w discussion in the comments. And the most used argument in that discussion has always been that you could only buy side-grades, not upgrades in this game with cash. Killing off that argument is the same as throwing your non-p2w reputation out the window.

Figment · 2014-07-02, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Whether or not it's strictly p2w depends on the definition of p2w, which is a never ending discussion.

What's more important however is the perception of being p2w. Every single article around this game has always a big p2w discussion in the comments. And the most used argument in that discussion has always been that you could only buy side-grades, not upgrades in this game with cash. Killing off that argument is the same as throwing your non-p2w reputation out the window.

Well it was quite clear that the moment they were upgrades in beta, people would get more power from the basic. Sidegrades in PS2 is per definition more a choice between upgrades. :/

Does it matter if it's paying players that get an advantage or lib/mossie/spawncamp farmers though?

Rolfski · 2014-07-02, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Well it was quite clear that the moment they were upgrades in beta, people would get more power from the basic. Sidegrades in PS2 is per definition more a choice between upgrades. :/

Does it matter if it's paying players that get an advantage or lib/mossie/spawncamp farmers though?

Side-grades are definitely not designed as upgrades in this game but just as an option for a different play style.

Aside from the discussion if that truly holds up in reality, it matters a LOT if players can buy an advantage. Even with these small attachments hardly being game changers, the real damage is giving the game a bad reputation.

Osskscosco · 2014-07-02, 07:23 AM

Pay2win means that you can buy overpowered things with SC but not with certs, so go home!

Figment · 2014-07-02, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Side-grades are definitely not designed as upgrades in this game but just as an option for a different play style.

Whether you get a side armour or front armour, both are an upgrade compared to having nothing. Both are sidegrades with respect to one another though.

Aside from the discussion if that truly holds up in reality, it matters a LOT if players can buy an advantage. Even with these small attachments hardly being game changers, the real damage is giving the game a bad reputation.

But it isn't a major advantage, I'm more upset with people that can get hundreds of certs through lame gameplay.

War Barney · 2014-07-02, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Osskscosco

Pay2win means that you can buy overpowered things with SC but not with certs, so go home!

No p2w can mean either:

1. Buying power with money, which this technically is as you are spending money to get a more stable gun / better hip fire which is buying power.

2. Buying power with money that other people can't get without paying money, basically meaning you can never be as powerful as somebody who paid money.

2 is obviously the worst form of it as it means if you pay you will pretty much always win, but 1 is still teetering on that line, its basically going 1 step further from exp boosts which save you time by letting you earn certs faster by instead just letting you spend money instead of certs.

Rolfski · 2014-07-02, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Osskscosco

Pay2win means that you can buy overpowered things with SC but not with certs, so go home!

That's only one definition of p2w. The problem is that there are more definitions of p2w and this game just became p2w by one of these definitions, which is bad PR.

Originally Posted by Figment

Whether you get a side armour or front armour, both are an upgrade compared to having nothing. Both are sidegrades with respect to one another though.

Side armour and front armour are both upgrades over default armour, which is power you can buy with cash now.

But it isn't a major advantage, I'm more upset with people that can get hundreds of certs through lame gameplay.

It's not so much about how big the advantage is you can buy with cash now, it's about giving up an important principle to stay out of the p2w realm.
This game being Farmvilleside 2 is a discussion for another topic.

VaderShake · 2014-07-02, 08:06 AM

Reality is that the video game industry is becoming "Pay 2 Save Time", there is no
real "Winning" in PS2 and no 1 person can become over powered and affect battles of hundreds of people unlocking an add on or weapon for a Max or any other class. It's silly to think so and if you do your an idiot.

Besides, in the FPS military arena what other games out there are pushing the envelope like PS2 is in the scope and vision of what they are trying to achieve?
**Spoiler Alert: NONE of them!!**

I'm not calling PS2 perfect but I really think some people here have lost perspective on the history of FPS's and what PS2 is trying to be. If nothing else I see SOE setting the table for a massive sequel someday that will be real-time battle across a planet on unprecedented scale of size, strategy, and player count. No other developer is even scratching the surface on that, but if you want to stay in the wash, rinse, repeat, 6,16,32-64 players fighting in the same repetitive small maps over and over and over again in 10-15 minute rounds then go play those games.

PS2 keep trying to do what your doing, yea it's not perfect but at least someone out there is trying.

ringring · 2014-07-02, 08:11 AM

This is an overblown issue and imho there has been no significant change.

War Barney · 2014-07-02, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by VaderShake

Reality is that the video game industry is becoming "Pay 2 Save Time", there is no
real "Winning" in PS2 and no 1 person can become over powered and affect battles of hundreds of people unlocking an add on or weapon for a Max or any other class. It's silly to think so and if you do your an idiot.

so its ok if I use god mode because just 1 guy being overpowered wont change a fight right? Its not ok for anybody to be overpowered just because its a game of numbers, it will still be unfair for the people who run into that person.

And the problem isn't paying to save time, thats ok it encourages people who don't have many hours a day to play to play anyway as they can unlock things they want and enjoy the game, the problem is it borders on pay to win and the closer they get the more likely they are to cross that line.

Also paying to save time has its flaws, it depends if you trust them to keep the integrity of the game while doing so. Now they are selling attachments for SC whats to stop them doubling or tripling the cert cost of said attachments, is that ok? you can still unlock them for free it just takes so long you'll be subtly encouraged to buy it with money instead.

And THAT is the real worry with games like ps2 when it comes to paying to save time... do you trust SOE to not fiddle the numbers so it takes an unreasonable amount of time to unlock stuff without paying?

Rolfski · 2014-07-02, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by ringring

This is an overblown issue and imho there has been no significant change.

Do you have any idea how many raging discussions there are in the comment section of literally every article about this game?
The moment this game gets any media attention, whether it being a Levelcap video or an IGN article, the p2w discussion pops like a shit storm.

So in terms of game play the change might not be big, in terms of reputation it's certainly not an overblown issue. P2w is the no 1 topic people look at first when judging a f2p game.

ringring · 2014-07-02, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Do you have any idea how many raging discussions there are in the comment section of literally every article about this game?
The moment this game gets any media attention, whether it being a Levelcap video or an IGN article, the p2w discussion pops like a shit storm.

So in terms of game play the change might not be big, in terms of reputation it's certainly not an overblown issue. P2w is the no 1 topic people look at first when judging a f2p game.

Maybe so, whilst I do read every ps2 article I come across I rarely delve into the comments section because when I do the comments usually display ignorance or partisanship.

Right from the off of this game weapons can both be bought with station cash or through simply playing the game. As far as I can see there has been no change to the principle.

Personally I'd prefer a subscription model rather than a ftp one but that would be because of other reasons involving game design.