Does the shallow TTK shortchange the Depth this game could have?

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by Figment

Quite so, a bit harder in CoD, but I'd say a minor increase in TTK time wouldn't hurt at all.

After all, we face quite a few more threats at once than in your general CoD game...

True, and that is one of the reasons that I love PS2; the feeling of being part of somethign so much bigger than myself.

To be honest, I wouldn't object to a minor increase in TTK, but only because I don't think a minor increase would make much difference.

Lots of ways to die in COD though, ridiculously OP killstreak rewards abound. Exploding toy cars and one bite kill attack dogs in Black Ops 1, for instance.

[Sturmhardt]

Yup... since people got better at this game and everyone picked their favorite weapon I die instantly very often. Not fun.

[exile]

Originally Posted by VGCS

Pay particular attention to the point about "Modern Shooters" while considering PS2's ingredients: Situational Awareness, tactical decision making, reaction time, Map & Terrain awareness, your opponent's class, your opponents weapon, where the nearest corners/cover is in multiple directions, ally locations, objective & spawn flow, recoil control, compensating aim for the impacts of flinching, ...and everything else I'm missing here that comes from hybridizing an FPS together with the macro-elements of RTS size armies & strategies .... and then compress it all into 0.80 seconds which is effectively your entire lifespan when being shot at.

I would argue that a low TTK is actually necessary to keep complexity manageable. As you describe there is a lot of inherent complexity in just the scale of the game; maintaining good "situational awareness", even when you're not in combat, already places a high mental burden on a player. Once you engage an opponent the burden of maintaining that situational awareness on top of the complexity of individual combat becomes impossible to sustain.

The longer a fight lasts the less information the players have about what is going on around them (because they can't look around and move freely while engaged) and the more "randomness" is introduced from the player's perspective; e.g. the more likely it is someone will arrive and get the drop on them from an unseen position. You need fights to end quickly so the complexity drops back down to manageable level, even if it's just for a second or two so that the player can update their situational awareness before engaging again.

I haven't thought this all the way through for how the complexity scales for multi-combatant engagements but my feeling is that it's the same, although highly sophisticated squad tactics may change that.

[Deadeye]

Originally Posted by psijaka

TTK of several seconds? Ugh, remind me not to play TF2.

It's considered one of the greatest FPSs of all time and is incredibly fun to play. You don't use machine guns in TF2, you use special weapons for each class from rocket launchers to flamethrowers to the Heavy's Gatling gun. It's an amazing game and requires, I think, a hell of a lot more skill than this run and gun fragfest we have going on in this game. And is a hell of a lot more fun (I love playing scout and Pyro in particular).

Oh and, by-the-way, it's free to play now. And not Freemium like this game, the regular weapons are just as good as anything you can buy (and it's not hard to get the extra guns through normal play and using the in game crafting system to make any guns you see others using.)

[psijaka]

Yeah, heard a lot about TF2; generally very regarded, but I don't think that it's my cup of tea. Life too busy to devote myself to more than one or two games at any one time.

Anyone interested in trying out a fast paced third person shooter (with a seriously long TTK) should give Firefall a try; they are hosting an open beta weekend starting Jan 25th (see www.firefallthegame.com), and if anyone is really keen, I've got 5 full beta invites available which I would like to give away; just message me.

Not that keen on the PvP aspect of it, but the PvE in the Open World is pretty unique, and has a real "feel good" factor.

Which pretty much sums up my feelings on TTK -

Short TTK - serious FPS
Long TTK - fun RPG

[Ghoest9]

Short TTK - fun and tactical

Long TTK - lets tactically bad but good at twitch players always win

[Deadeye]

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

Short TTK - fun and tactical

Long TTK - lets tactically bad but good at twitch players always win

I think you have those backwards.

[Figment]

PS2 needs medium fps due to travel time vs rewarded with fun fight, amount of players and ability to hold for long periods of time. Die fast + long travel time = lose constantly before reinforcements arrive.

[exile]

Figment, can you summarise your position on this? I tried piecing it together from the lengthy and muddled conversations but can't really get a succinct grasp of it.

[Ghoest9]

Originally Posted by Deadeye

I think you have those backwards.

No I dont.

Simpletons who are get shot because they arent aware convince themselves that if it some how took longer to die they would be winning more.

Players with brains understand that longer TTK just means tactics stops mattering and circle strafing ability decides all fights.


The people who want longer TTK are either good twitch players who know longer TTK lets them win even when people sneak up behind them, or just dumb players desperately hoping that longer fights give them an opportunity to magically win.

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

No I dont.

Simpletons who are get shot because they arent aware convince themselves that if it some how took longer to die they would be winning more.

Players with brains understand that longer TTK just means tactics stops mattering and circle strafing ability decides all fights.


The people who want longer TTK are either good twitch players who know longer TTK lets them win even when people sneak up behind them, or just dumb players desperately hoping that longer fights give them an opportunity to magically win.

^ this.

In particular, the highlighted paragraph perfectly describes the dominant gameplay in a Firefall TDM. Firefall Open Beta next weekend if anyone doesn't believe me!

[ringring]

I have to admit I've quite enjoyed reading the posts in this thread.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by exile

Figment, can you summarise your position on this? I tried piecing it together from the lengthy and muddled conversations but can't really get a succinct grasp of it.

CoD TTK ---- PS2 TTK ----- Figgy's prefered TTK --- PS1 TTK-------------------extremely long TTK

Constant movement like headless chicken: sitting still is death by random shot (includes both CoD and PS2) -------------- Figgy's prefered TTK: Dig in to hold, twitch skill some impact to stand a chance, but caught of guard provides advantage ------ PS1: turn around freely ------------------- Big groups have too much endurance for focused fire to work (think MAX crash)


I feel it helps good players be and feel competitive and allows worse players to at least feel they did something and learn from the experience before they died a bloody death.

That suffice?




PS: Tactics always matter. Even the longer PS1 TTKs let me plug three shots in someone's bumm with a Mag Scat pistol before they reacted and let's you control the fight.

People who want this exact TTK and not a single change anywhere may as well have selected an arbitrary status quo as the optimum ever opposed to indeed having a justified preference: you can't know, it's subjective! Making crude statements like Ghoest does is simply arbitrary insulting and justification of a standpoint through personal attacks.

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by psijaka

Short TTK - serious FPS
Long TTK - fun RPG

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

Short TTK - fun and tactical
Long TTK - lets tactically bad but good at twitch players always win

Perhaps I should have chosen my words more carefully.

Short TTK - serious FPS
Long TTK - casual RPG

Both can be fun!

[Deadeye]

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

No I dont.

Simpletons who are get shot because they arent aware convince themselves that if it some how took longer to die they would be winning more.

Players with brains understand that longer TTK just means tactics stops mattering and circle strafing ability decides all fights.


The people who want longer TTK are either good twitch players who know longer TTK lets them win even when people sneak up behind them, or just dumb players desperately hoping that longer fights give them an opportunity to magically win.

Originally Posted by psijaka

^ this.

In particular, the highlighted paragraph perfectly describes the dominant gameplay in a Firefall TDM. Firefall Open Beta next weekend if anyone doesn't believe me!

Get off your high horses, guys. We're talking about 1-1.5 second ttk vs the .5-.8 we have now. A game with this much stuff going on in it needs a slightly longer ttk than COD or battlefield because there's a ton more stuff shooting you at any given time and you need time to react.

And btw, it's far more twitch to have a lower ttk. Twitch means reaction time and when you turn a corner and come face to face with an enemy, the one with the faster reaction time is going to win in this game. And win in half a second.

Also, this game is a strategic game, not a tactical one and longer ttk promotes more strategy than a twitch arena shooter like COD.