Knife = One hit kill? - Page 10

berzerkerking · 2012-06-13, 09:57 PM

Sneak attack should remain a one hit kill. But i'm all for bayonets as an optional frontal kill.
People freak out with knife but in real life how often have you been able to dodge it> I take classes where I actually do a drill to practice dodging blunted knives. Unless you constantly practice your reaction time is not godlike on its own, so you will get stuck in the neck. I can see countering becoming an optional cert, and equip time being slower, but not everyone will survive a frontal assault. Stabbing speed, and dodging speed would both be skill points to be enhanced. A soldier experienced in countering at the highest level completely dodge the attack and stab his opponent in a slow motion sequence if it was frontal. Sneak attacks are fatal period.

xcel · 2012-06-13, 10:01 PM

This thread is disturbingly detailed. Are you sure you're not a serial killer?

Ratstomper · 2012-06-13, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Two different uses. I'll assume you already read the other thread and skip the in depth explanation. Say both quick knife and equipped knife are 4 hits to kill their target dealling 30% damage each time. Now quick knife requires your soldier to rapidly holster their weapon and swipe their knife out then go back to the holstering animation to pull their weapon up again. This post-swipe delay causes a final strike type mentality. You're shooting someone and you're close enough so if you want you can hit them for 30% health nearly instantly at the cost of a delay afterwards. If you're following an enemy and just wish to knife them from full health you could simply equip your knife to do rapid slashes. (4 to kill in this scenario). Or you can change modes and stab three times assuming no certifications. Something you can't do with a quick knife button.

I would actually be ok with this implementation. So long as quick-knifing has a certain scenario it's meant for (moderate damage for finishing off injured enemies, not just running around one-shotting people form full health) and people who want to cert have the ability to use it as an assassination tool can use it in that manner. Just to clarify, you're saying all soldiers have the knife as both a single-hit quick knife button for moderate damage from very short range (right next to the guy) and an equippable version for continuous attacking/backstabs (also, right next to the guy)? I could get behind that.

I don't know about the throwing thing...lets not put the cart in front of the horse, huh?

EDIT: Also, the "stabbing mode" in PS1 involved using additional functions of the knife (TR's chain blade was like a mini chainsaw which made noise when turned on, similar to NC's mag-cutter, and VS had a knife that glowed brightly when activated).

Sirisian · 2012-06-13, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by berzerkerking

Sneak attack should remain a one hit kill.

I really don't think people have thought sneak attacks out well. Even if it's an equipped knife the ability to one-hit someone in a game with so many people standing at vehicle terms and such it just feels cheap. In Planetside 1 we tested this once. The developers patched the game with 1 hit knives. It was ridiculous for cloakers (and regular users). It would need to be on the secondary mode and be audible and only work on stationary targets. Even then it would need to be beta tested. (I personally don't like being one hit by other players).

Originally Posted by berzerkerking

I can see countering becoming an optional cert, and equip time being slower, but not everyone will survive a frontal assault.

Actually in the other knife thread it came up multiple times that people wanted a way to parry quick knives and normal equip knife attacks. A novel idea which is presented in the implementation I put forth was that any two players that knifed each other at the same time would parry the attack and do no damage. This allows players that are skilled to block such an attack in CQC (even if it only does 30% damage it could still be life saving).

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

Just to clarify, you're saying all soldiers have the knife as both a single-hit quick knife button for moderate damage from very short range (right next to the guy) and an equippable version for continuous attacking/backstabs (also, right next to the guy)? I could get behind that.

Yeah it's what I've been suggesting the whole time in multiple threads.

It's all from this thread. On the last page is the summary with multiple people's ideas after revision. The justification is in the thread though on the last page and a few other pages.

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Version 4: Balanced Knife Design:

Quick-button knife with post use delay equal to the unholstering delay of pulling out the weapon again. (Missing with a quick knife leaves you at a huge disadvantage time wise essentially).
- Tapping the quick knife key swipes for 30% damage
- Holding the quick knife key transitions to throwing knife after 1 second. 10 m range medium COF. 30% damage
- Holding over 1.5 seconds has 25 m with small COF. 35% damage
3-mode equipped knife:
- swipe, 30% damage. It's faster for continuous swipes than quick knifing since it lacks the transition back to a weapon)
- stab, 35% damage, Audible noise like in PS1.
- throw, single use 30% damage (better for multiple knives since there's no holstering delay)
  - Has pre (1 second to 1.5s when holding down the fire button) and post throw delay (longer animation).
  - If you don't hold the fire button for 1 second the throw is cancelled.
Throwing knifes has Slow spinning projectile. So if you get hit the person that threw it might be behind cover.
When equipped secondary stab mode does 75% damage when backstabbing stationary targets.
Maxes takes 0% damage from knife attacks.
Damage is uniform across all classes with no class (other than max) having advantages or disadvantages.
If two people knife at the same general time the attacks are parried doing no damage allowing friendlies to kill the attacker. Rare, but this was brought up and is really necessary to help those at low health to protect themselves from a finishing strike. This increases tactics and fulfills the concept of a quick time event for protecting oneself from knife attacks that a few people want.

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

I don't know about the throwing thing...lets not put the cart in front of the horse, huh?

Soon. Actually I should say if no one reads the other thread that a thrown knife has travel time unlike a silenced pistol. So it's possible for a cloaker than has multiple of them to hit players and hide even if they turn on a dark light vision system to attempt to find the cloaker.

Knuckle · 2012-06-13, 10:22 PM

I won't say I'm neccessarily against quick knifing. I'd prefer not having it, but I won't stop playing if it is in. So long as it's not one hit kill on ANYTHING. Think about it. In a game like CoD, everyone is the -same-. In Planetside, you have one guy that is x, one is y, and another z. Maybe a one hit knife on infiltrators, two on agile exosuits, three on Rexo, and not being able to knife a MAX at all? No MAX knifing makes sense unless the magcutter is on, as it's like trying to cut into a tank, basically.

Werefox · 2012-06-13, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

You aren't taking into consideration that most weapons that can't do 1-hit kills have much faster rate of fire and/or have much easier time hitting people (shotguns, for example).

Altering rates of fire, clip sizes, spreads, and ranges are how different damage types are attempted to be balanced by the developers. And you are right, if somewhat extreme example (relatively), shotguns would require less aim skill than say a bolt action rifle. Conversely, if I hit someone at long range with an assault rifle using 1 round bursts, shouldn't I be rewarded at least as well as the target using a bolt action?

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

Also 1-2 seconds is FOREVER when you're in the middle of a fight. considering we've already seen the TTK times pretty short, I don't see how adding the ability for 1-hit kill knives will make much difference anyway.

Yes, it is, and it was really just a throw away thought. I just like the idea of hitting someone with my medic's gauss rifle :P

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

And, as always, if someone gets behind you and manages to knife you, you should be dead. This is because it's going to be a lot harder to close distances in PS2 than you guys are thinking it will. With more emphasis on teamplay, you're likely going to have squads, not so much individual players, taking points. If an infiltrator wants to knife someone, he needs not only to go unnoticed by you, but also your whole squad. Even if you don't see him, chances are your buddy will...unless he's a particularly good infiltrator/guerrilla fighter, in which case, he deserves the kill. Once you spot him, at ANY distance, he's toast.

If someone does manage to get behind me, without me noticing, then well done that (wo)man, have your kill. However, I've been killed a number of times by a spy's knife in TF2, but only a small percentage of those have been because I didn't know they were there. More often, its with the spy running around like a loon swinging like a madman, hoping to get a hit in that is reasonably close to being behind you.

If that scenario was in PS2, your squad isn't going to be all that much use as they are just as likely to kill you as they are the infiltrator. Which you could argue is a skill in itself, but the point is he's been seen and at that point why should they be rewarded for being stealthy, when they haven't?

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

I retain my opinion that A) knives should be equipable and useable like any weapon (no quick-knife) and B) If someone has certified for it, a backstab with knives is a 1-hit kill

Would you be happy with MAX's having a one hit kill on non-MAXs from their melee attack? In theory they have certified for it by choosing the MAX suit, and given their relative lack of mobility it would take more skill to get into hand to hand than an infiltrator.

Werefox · 2012-06-13, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Werefox

Would you be happy with MAX's having a one hit kill on non-MAXs from their melee attack? In theory they have certified for it by choosing the MAX suit, and given their relative lack of mobility it would take more skill to get into hand to hand than an infiltrator.

Hehe, I've given myself visions of MAX suited players having slapping competitions in the middle of battlefields

... I think i need to lay off the sugar.

qbert2 · 2012-06-13, 10:39 PM

I'm only ok with it only if: one, it's an inf only weapon. Two, they can't have the knife and the sniper rifle at the same time. Three, they have to be cloaked and have a cert for a one hit kill to get a one hit kill. Otherwise I'd just rather they remove knives and melee attacks from everyone. The other classes shouldn't be the ones attempting to sneak around and knife someone from behind.

Also, any attempts to argue for it for the sake of 'realism' is pointless because if I had an automatic weapon and was behind an enemy I'd be shooting them in the head not unfastening my velcro knife holster, pulling out my knife, slinging my weapon on to my shoulder, grabbing him, turning him around, and then stabbing him in the neck.

The noob · 2012-06-13, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by qbert2

I'm only ok with it only if: one, it's an inf only weapon. Two, they can't have the knife and the sniper rifle at the same time.

By design, I'm betting that's what they are encouraging. The cloak they have using a sniper rifle lasts only for a few seconds, and is very visible, it serves more as an all around ghillie suit than a full cloak. If he sacrifices his primary weapon (aka no shotguns or smgs either), than he gains a much longer and less visible cloak. So if an infil is running around backstabbing people, he probably won't have a primary weapon.

I'll say this, no to one shot quick knives, however, I'll be fine if its an equipable knife, and that it can only be done in backstabs. An equipable knife leaves you much more vulnerable than a simple quick knife does when you kill someone, since you will have to manually switch over to your gun rather than automatically equipping it. It also is more punishing if you get caught trying to knife someone, since you can't knife him, and automatically switch to your gun and start gunning his team mates down as well. Also, the backstab should have to be certified, if you want to be a melee assassin, then you'll have to specialize in it at the expense of other things.

Ratstomper · 2012-06-13, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Werefox

Altering rates of fire, clip sizes, spreads, and ranges are how different damage types are attempted to be balanced by the developers. And you are right, if somewhat extreme example (relatively), shotguns would require less aim skill than say a bolt action rifle. Conversely, if I hit someone at long range with an assault rifle using 1 round bursts, shouldn't I be rewarded at least as well as the target using a bolt action?

I wouldn't say so, simply because that's not what the weapon is designed to do. If that is how you're playing, then you may want to switch to the weapon that is better suited for that role. Certifications will come into this as well; someone who has spent their hard earned certs on sniping (a somewhat niche ability), then they should have some payoff for that; one-hit kills (assuming they can properly adjust for bullet dropoff and lead appropriately).

It's a bit like saying you cut down a tree with a butterknife instead of a chainsaw; it's not just a bout how much effort you put into it, it's how effective you are in the process that matters.

Originally Posted by Werefox

Yes, it is, and it was really just a throw away thought. I just like the idea of hitting someone with my medic's gauss rifle :P

That's understandable, but we have to take into consideration that everyone has a different playstyle and trying to put what everyone wants in the game is unfeasible. I want a more complex and tactical spotting system, but I doubt it will make it in...

Originally Posted by Werefox

If someone does manage to get behind me, without me noticing, then well done that (wo)man, have your kill. However, I've been killed a number of times by a spy's knife in TF2, but only a small percentage of those have been because I didn't know they were there. More often, its with the spy running around like a loon swinging like a madman, hoping to get a hit in that is reasonably close to being behind you.

That's why it will have to be implemented correctly, not by shirking the idea, but my ensuring that ranges and numbers are made to such a degree that assassinations are working as intended.

Originally Posted by Werefox

If that scenario was in PS2, your squad isn't going to be all that much use as they are just as likely to kill you as they are the infiltrator. Which you could argue is a skill in itself, but the point is he's been seen and at that point why should they be rewarded for being stealthy, when they haven't?

I don't understand this point. If someone (not just an infil) has gotten behind you and gets close enough to kill you without you or your squad noticing, then he should have the kill. Again, it comes down to the details of trying to get the idea to work with all the server technical stuff to ensure it's working correctly in the first place.

Originally Posted by Werefox

Would you be happy with MAX's having a one hit kill on non-MAXs from their melee attack? In theory they have certified for it by choosing the MAX suit, and given their relative lack of mobility it would take more skill to get into hand to hand than an infiltrator.

It's my belief that the ONLY time a 1-hit knife kill can happen is if A) It's been specifically certed for and B) it's an attack from behind. That cert is another very niche ability. Should MAXes be able to one-shot people with melee? No, because they've got two perfectly good guns that they've been mowing people down with the whole time. That's not really what MAX units are designed for. Assassination, however, is right up an infiltrators, or even regular footsoldiers alley; certing to take someone out quietly and efficiently IF the situation is right.

Werefox · 2012-06-13, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

I don't understand this point. If someone (not just an infil) has gotten behind you and gets close enough to kill you without you or your squad noticing, then he should have the kill. Again, it comes down to the details of trying to get the idea to work with all the server technical stuff to ensure it's working correctly in the first place.

Apologies, I didn't write that as clear as I should have. It was for the case where the infiltrator has gotten close to a target, has been spotted and is currently running around erratically with a knife attempting to get a back stab. At this point, everyone in the room knows he's there, but the crossfire is more likely to kill friendlies. As soon as the guy has been spotted, he should no longer be able to get 1 shot kills with a knife in my opinion. Knife still does damage, yes, but not 1 shot 'backstabs' no matter how certified you are.

Werefox · 2012-06-13, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

I wouldn't say so, simply because that's not what the weapon is designed to do. If that is how you're playing, then you may want to switch to the weapon that is better suited for that role. Certifications will come into this as well; someone who has spent their hard earned certs on sniping (a somewhat niche ability), then they should have some payoff for that; one-hit kills (assuming they can properly adjust for bullet dropoff and lead appropriately).

A rifle is a rifle: a long range hit would still require properly adjusting for bullet drop off and leading appropriately. So at this point the only real difference between the two scenarios is that one individual has spent certificate points one particular way, and is using a weapon better suited for the role they currently find themselves in. From a twitch point of view, they are less skillful than the other player at that point in time.

However, from an overall point of view, yes I think that they should have a benefit from their certification spending - I just don't think that any 1 shot certification, no matter how specialised it is, should exist.

Zolan · 2012-06-13, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Two different uses. I'll assume you already read the other thread and skip the in depth explanation. Say both quick knife and equipped knife are 4 hits to kill their target dealling 30% damage each time. Now quick knife requires your soldier to rapidly holster their weapon and swipe their knife out then go back to the holstering animation to pull their weapon up again. This post-swipe delay causes a final strike type mentality. You're shooting someone and you're close enough so if you want you can hit them for 30% health nearly instantly at the cost of a delay afterwards. If you're following an enemy and just wish to knife them from full health you could simply equip your knife to do rapid slashes. (4 to kill in this scenario). Or you can change modes and stab three times assuming no certifications. Something you can't do with a quick knife button.

I already linked my favorite design a few times which balances multiple ways of using the knife. Personally my favorite is still allowing quick knife but holding the quick knife button to throw it to do the same 30% damage, but only once. If you just ran out of ammo for instance and saw a player's health bar was less than 30% health it would be so much cool to hold the the quick knife button for a second and watch an animation of your player flipping the knife onto the blade and allowing you to release it toward your target. Get it to stick in also. I digress. I'm big into giving players random choices even if they'd rarely be used.

You guys are taking this way too far.

This is Planetside, not Space Ninja Online.

Soldiers in heavy armor shooting laser rifles, firing rocket launchers, and throwing plasma grenades.

A knife should only be used in moments of desperation (no ammo), not as an equivalent (or more powerful) weapon option.

In these "no ammo" cases a player won't even need a quick-knife as they won't have a rifle equipped.

The only players who should even think about using a knife as a primary weapon are infiltrators, but they've actually been hindered by this new attempt to copy "popular" shooters. You can't use a chain-blade alternate setting on a quick-knife.

The knives from the original PS are all PS2 needs. When a player starts considering whether or not to unload a clip from a heavy machine gun, or stab someone with a knife, something is wrong.

It's a first person shooter first, not a first person stabber.

Less of this...

More of this...

Ratstomper · 2012-06-13, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by Werefox

Apologies, I didn't write that as clear as I should have. It was for the case where the infiltrator has gotten close to a target, has been spotted and is currently running around erratically with a knife attempting to get a back stab. At this point, everyone in the room knows he's there, but the crossfire is more likely to kill friendlies. As soon as the guy has been spotted, he should no longer be able to get 1 shot kills with a knife in my opinion. Knife still does damage, yes, but not 1 shot 'backstabs' no matter how certified you are.

Yes, but the understanding is that once a squad has seen the attacking soldier, they aren't going to have their backs to him and they aren't going to be standing still. Obviously, it should be impossible to "facestab". I'm totally with you on that and I think it could be implemented well enough that there shouldnt be any issues with people running amok and backstabbing guys in the middle of firefights (unless they sneak up behind someone during a firefight).

Originally Posted by Werefox

A rifle is a rifle: a long range hit would still require properly adjusting for bullet drop off and leading appropriately. So at this point the only real difference between the two scenarios is that one individual has spent certificate points one particular way, and is using a weapon better suited for the role they currently find themselves in. From a twitch point of view, they are less skillful than the other player at that point in time.

However, from an overall point of view, yes I think that they should have a benefit from their certification spending - I just don't think that any 1 shot certification, no matter how specialised it is, should exist.

I'm not sure I understand how anyone would be "less skilled" than another. The fact is that an assault rifle isn't the same as a sniper rifle. The tradeoff is that a sniper rifle is a lot less useful in close/medium engagements. In exchange for that, snipers get scopes and one-hit kills at long range (assuming the can hit with it). Vice Versa, the assault rifle is easily used in close quarters and medium engagements, but lacks the caliber and attachments to do what the sniper rifle does.

Its the same reason why military snipers use M24s instead of M16's. It's a different weapon with different training for a different purpose and the two can hardly be compared.

Ratstomper · 2012-06-13, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Zolan

You guys are taking this way too far.

Yeah yeah, ok. When you're done riding on your high horse, listen to what we're saying. Noone wants 1-hit facestab kills and noone thinks a knife should be able to outshoot a gun. Obviously.