Higby on Air/AA balance.. Is it the fast track to Airside? - Page 10

Snipefrag · 2012-11-30, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Xaine

Oh and by the way, I didn't lose my composure. If you need to compose yourself to post on some forums I suggest you go outside, or get a job.

Naa, I'm composed. Definition:

calm; tranquil; serene

It brings serenity to my being watching you get all riled up about some throw away comment. Go outside? Get a job? Now who's being childish.

Bravix · 2012-11-30, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Scythe 65 Killstreak Uncut (Planetside 2 Gameplay/Commentary) - YouTube

My point? Just wondering how many you need to have in a squad to kill 65 aircav lonewolving it.

Notice how easy it is for the Scythe user to rack up kills on targets that could never have seen him coming and how fast he can disengage? Notice how easy the anti-vehicle rocket pods are to use on infantry?

Notice how there's hardly any effective AA around if the pilot treats it as a deterent, while in that same timespan that he is being detered (hit and shot at) that pilot could have killed many infantry and other vehicles? >.>

There's no reason to treat pilots as if they're playing a different game. If we all die fast, certainly to them - even when they are alone (!) - they should die fast to their counters as well.

Now, I don't like that people have mass access to AA. It should be a specialty so they can be more effective and a valuable team member. Cause I also really wonder what else your squad accomplished in that "aircav decimation time". Probably very little since you weren't capable of downing any Sunderer AMSes in that same time span, wern't able to take outposts and wern't able to do anything but defend an outcrop... Which is nice and supportive defensively, but is a big drain on your empire's player number just to deal with a few pilots.

Only watched 3 minutes. That's all I needed to watch.

First off, there was no AA shooting at him. That isn't his fault. The infantry also never fired a norma AV rocket at him. FFS, he was RIGHT OVER THEM HOVERING IN A STRAIGHT PATH. I would have taken him out of the air on one of his first few runs on that base.

People need to learn to AA.

Dragonskin · 2012-11-30, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Bocheezu

Also, another consideration here is the cert gain per hour for different playstyles. I don't know if it's all bluster and bravado on the main forums, but the ESF killwhores talk about 100 certs an hour or some such. Which from simple math means about a kill every 15 seconds. They tell everyone else that if you're getting 30 certs an hour, you are an absolutely pathetic player and should quit immediately.

100 certs an hour actually isn't that hard to do. People go on killing streaks with lightnings and MBTs all the time. While I tend to stay out of the ground vehicles I do get very good cert gain per hour playing medic or engineer. Medic being my most played class so far. 87-100 exp per revive and upwards of 22 exp for each healing tick on squad mates... not unreasonable. Engie just has to toss a ammo pack on the ground and run around repping MAXs and any terminals or turrets around a base.. vehicles too. Then you can toss in the kills that Engie and Medic get.. yea, in a heavy battle I can walk away with 50 certs in about 30 minutes. I don't normally see many hour long battles though.

Bravix · 2012-11-30, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Helwyr

Yes more is necessary, those AA weapons need to be effective at killing aircraft. A PS2 Burster MAX is no where near as effective at downing aircraft as a PS1 Burster or Starfire MAX was able to. Keep in mind even with those better AA MAXes Aircav was still the dominant playstyle of PS1 with most of the powergamers and self proclaimed "elite" Outfits gravitating towards Air.

A single dedicated AA unit should be more effective at destroying an ESF, than a single ESF is at destroying a tank. ... That would be balanced.

As to Infantry, they are going to be weaker than vehicles, but they should benefit from having a low battlefield profile. With Infantry detecting radar (unlike vehicles there's no "stealth" cert option to avoid this, yup more balance madness) and IR/Thermal imaging and little aerial cover Infantry do not have the Low battlefield profile they ought to benefit from. The lower Render distance is all they have going for them.

Between Empires this game isn't badly balanced, but between roles its balance is pretty abysmal. ESFs vs AA is the worst of this unbalance.

What are you smoking? If you died to a Starfire (unless you're referring to the OP version of old) you deserved it.

"Oh noes, I'm being shot at by a starfire! I guess I'll just outrun the projectiles in my Galaxy. Bye bye silly MAX!"

Dragonskin · 2012-11-30, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Bravix

Only watched 3 minutes. That's all I needed to watch.

First off, there was no AA shooting at him. That isn't his fault. The infantry also never fired a norma AV rocket at him. FFS, he was RIGHT OVER THEM HOVERING IN A STRAIGHT PATH. I would have taken him out of the air on one of his first few runs on that base.

People need to learn to AA.

No no, you messed up his perfect scenario showing how OP ESF are... I am sure he will have some response that will attempt to descredit everything you just said.. even though it is true.

Personally as a ESF pilot I would love to see these battles that Levelcap sees.. Where can I find idiots to kill? I guess that is what I get for going up against The Enclave on Mattherson... Tons of AA going around making flying impossible sometimes and while I dislike The Enclave.. they are not idiots.

CasualCat · 2012-11-30, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Rat

I think part of the problem with air being being the hard counter for air, is that air dosent want to fight air. it wants to farm infantry...maybe up the xp gain for air to air kills and lower the xp for infantry kills?

The exception being fighting liberators which seem to be free juicy kills for ESFs.

I think they should just make ESFs like every other vehicle in game and make them choose one damn weapon. No one else gets two. You choose rocket pods and now you have no gun to deal with air. While they're at it make pods harder to use against air.

Sledgecrushr · 2012-11-30, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by CasualCat

The exception being fighting liberators which seem to be free juicy kills for ESFs.

I think they should just make ESFs like every other vehicle in game and make them choose one damn weapon. No one else gets two. You choose rocket pods and now you have no gun to deal with air. While they're at it make pods harder to use against air.

Every class, every vehicle has more than one weapon except for the quad.

CasualCat · 2012-11-30, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Every class, every vehicle has more than one weapon except for the quad.

And all those you're considering are multi-crew vehicles. There is no single person vehicle with multiple guns or even a crewed vehicle in which the person controls more than one weapon per seat. You also forgot the lightning.

So why are ESFs special?

maradine · 2012-11-30, 12:35 PM

Without getting into my standard broken record on the topic (make AAA deadly; give pilots good detection and avoidance tools), I'd frankly just like to see the Skyguard brought into line with dual bursters as an AA platform.

You had to cert into it, it's worthless against armor, marginal against infantry, inferior at AA, costs more to deploy from a pool you actually use, can't duck into buildings for cover, and can't be instantly refit by walking by a weapons terminal. Counterbalancing that is a 70kph top speed and a delightful array of hood ornaments - 10/10 for style, but like 2/10 as a realistic option given the current circumstances.

As its stands now, I don't think the removal of the SG turret from the configuration screen would impact the game in any meaningful way. When you hit that point, something's wrong.

I'd also like to see the Sky Lance go from pretty indoor set piece to actual system, but that's another thread.

Bags · 2012-11-30, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Bocheezu

I just wonder what the endgame balance is going to be like. The problem we have now is that there are people that want to specialize in ESF and soup up their ESFs first, and I don't know of anybody that's like "AA is the first thing I'm going to do!" So we have a lot of rocketwhores and a lot people that would like to have a 2nd burster arm but can't afford it because they built up something else.

No one certs AA because it isn't worth the certs or money.

Zerikin Loukbel · 2012-11-30, 01:08 PM

The ineffectiveness of AA is a compounding problem. The less effective it is the less certs you can get, the less certs an activity earns the less likely someone is to do it. Hence weak ground based AA makes for mostly non-existent AA outside of outfits. Even then one ESF can pop over a hill and destroy a tank with rockets before anyone can do anything about it. Oh yeah and they can traverse the entire map in seconds too.

AuntLou · 2012-11-30, 01:13 PM

I asked Higby on the stream last night how anyone can justify purchasing any AA in it's current state(in other words, not sure exactly how I worded it). His reply just reiterated everything he already has said. He is basically saying he doesn't want ground to air to obliterate everything in the sky.

We totally get that! We don't want that either! But at it's current state it's not even worth using. You can't tell me that the majority are not regretting any of their ground to air purchases.

Dragonskin · 2012-11-30, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Zerikin Loukbel

weak ground based AA makes for mostly non-existent AA outside of outfits. .

Maybe that is it... but I would like to know what server you guys play on that doesn't have large outfits partolling around. On Matherson we have a lot of outfits and they all have people that have AA. They can all create no fly zones because they have an abudance of AA and coordination so that things are killed when they fly over.

I haven't really played the game outside of an outfit. I thought that was really what this game was based around.

Agian.. on Matherson there are nights where flying is nothing but an endless death trap because of all the AA.

Dragonskin · 2012-11-30, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by AuntLou

We totally get that! We don't want that either! But at it's current state it's not even worth using. You can't tell me that the majority are not regretting any of their ground to air purchases.

I don't regret it, but like I said in the above post I play in an outfit and when we all pop out our AA things die.

Figment · 2012-11-30, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Bravix

Only watched 3 minutes. That's all I needed to watch.

First off, there was no AA shooting at him. That isn't his fault. The infantry also never fired a norma AV rocket at him. FFS, he was RIGHT OVER THEM HOVERING IN A STRAIGHT PATH. I would have taken him out of the air on one of his first few runs on that base.

People need to learn to AA.

"AA isn't supposed to shoot them down" according to this thread, so why would they even try? You don't seem to comprehend that there's a severe lack of AA because people can't use it anyway.

Normal AV rockets don't hit aircav on a regular basis. Dumb fire rockets are too easy to dodge. Even if you lead the shot perfectly, they'll make a move every 2 seconds that places them out of your original path. We don't have Lancer's or Phoenixes in PS2. I'd love to see you make good on your claim and show us a vid where you kill these Scythes with dumb fire rockets all the time.

Ever tried using a Shrike and its massive drop off when firing upwards?

Have you seen how piss easy it is to line up a couple rockets on people that have no time to switch to AA, aren't even aware of an airborne threat or don't have any AA means in the vicinity and that by the time they do he's already gone roaming for free kills elsewhere?

If you were a competitive player, you'd expect the opponent to have time to retaliate in some fashion.