Nerf the NC MAX.

[General Price]

skillsaws hurt

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by klossboss

Sounds like you just need to be a better player. You could of used your MAX rush/sprint away from them or behind cover. Also, your story is pretty vague. And also, why is a scatmax guarding a vehicle entrance? And why not the double doors (if the vertical/horizontal generators were up).

To me, NC realize I am right, which I am lol. Majority of infantry battles occur at chock points and capture points. Not wide open spaces. And if they do, there is always the option of hitting your sprint and running away or behind cover. But, people will always come in here coming up with their 1 or 2 time stories of how they died in a MAX to justify them not being OP in the current game setup. But the "majority" of the time, NC scat/haxsaw MAXes are far superior to what the VS/TR have. And that is why we're having this discussion.

What discussion? We gave valid points that defend our points of view with examples of gameplay. I even offered to put this "debate" to the test and record it for all to see. Yet none offered to help, just bitch.

What are you adding to this with posts like that? It looks to me that you didn't bother to read the post you quoted and slapped a L2P reply down full of woulda, shoulda, coulda. He said that their defenses where overrun, so that means the gens are out and all shields are as well and yet you asked why a MAX would be covering that area. A massive open door that had both enemy troops and armor entering in force, and you ask why he was defending it.

This is in no way a discussion if one side refuses to even read the others thoughts and experiences.

[klossboss]

And I gave very valid points and supporting facts to "our" viewpoint. Do you not agree that infantry battles/fights occur more frequently in CQB situations than mid to long range?

Yes, I am asking why a scat/hacksaw max would be defending such a WIDE open area when you guys all prominently say how horrible your MAXes are at range. Which is a very well know fact that I won't disagree with at all. So if he had of known that like he does, why would he be in a position on the lower level where he is hardly effective at all and now near a stairwell, or perhaps the capture point or the SCU generator.

I'm trying to visualize the scenario he is stating and telling him, like what other NC members have stated to the rest of us (VS/TR) as in, how we shouldn't engage NC MAXes within 10m or die. And I am telling him where he went wrong.

Also, I would gladly help "test" but as it stands right now my laptop I'm on cannot run PS2 as I am on business travel. And it doesn't require PSU forum members to do these tests. Just do it yourself with outfit members. Not difficult at all.

[BIGGByran]

WOOT! Grinder is not in this mess! I preffer the Grinder over hack/scat any day! Glad my babies are out of this "discussion." :P

Ok ok, say if the devs did listen and replaces the Hack/Scat/Grin, what suggestions would you guys give to change our weapons?

Would you want it to shoot love and flower pedals? lol but in seriousness what would replace our shotguns? I noticed that even our ESF has a f*cking shotgun as its ES weapon.

[Varsam]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

I figured since we were having a speculative anecdotal argument then I would just throw out my last experience with hacksaw max. The only REAL evidence we have seen shows that hacksaw maxes are pretty worthless against other maxes outside of five meters.

No one is debating that. As far as I can tell in this thread, EVERYone agrees that scatmaxes mulch everything within 5m, and suck past that range.

Originally Posted by Chewy

What discussion? We gave valid points that defend our points of view with examples of gameplay. I even offered to put this "debate" to the test and record it for all to see. Yet none offered to help, just bitch.

What are you adding to this with posts like that? It looks to me that you didn't bother to read the post you quoted and slapped a L2P reply down full of woulda, shoulda, coulda. He said that their defenses where overrun, so that means the gens are out and all shields are as well and yet you asked why a MAX would be covering that area. A massive open door that had both enemy troops and armor entering in force, and you ask why he was defending it.

This is in no way a discussion if one side refuses to even read the others thoughts and experiences.

You should've read my post, then, because it addresses "your side's arguments" directly. For your convenience, here it is again:

"I'm really tired of people using the "scatmaxes suck at range" argument to justify the dominance of scatmaxes. If the game were a simple death match with wildly varying terrain types you'd see infantry in, that might be a valid argument. But this game revolves around base captures, which is where the bulk of infantry combat happens. All Points of interest in base capture (generators, scu, towers, buildings) force cqc, and this is where you see maxes. It is very, very easy in this case as a max to control the engagement so that you only engage at your optimal range. You would actually have to try harder in order to NOT engage at close range. In all of these scenarios, the brutal effectiveness and advantage scatmaxes have over their other empire counterparts is clear. NC maxes have capabilities that the other empires simply do not have. This is the same reasoning behind the magrider nerf (poorly implemented as it was), and so should be sound reasoning behind a scatmax nerf."

Also, there is no need for your experiment. Again, we all agree that scatmaxes are ineffective outside of the 0-10m range. That's not what's being disputed here.

Originally Posted by BIGGByran

WOOT! Grinder is not in this mess! I preffer the Grinder over hack/scat any day! Glad my babies are out of this "discussion." :P

Ok ok, say if the devs did listen and replaces the Hack/Scat/Grin, what suggestions would you guys give to change our weapons?

Would you want it to shoot love and flower pedals? lol but in seriousness what would replace our shotguns? I noticed that even our ESF has a f*cking shotgun as its ES weapon.

I'm not ready to give up on shotgun maxes just yet. I think NC maxes should retain their uniqueness. But I also think that some major tweaking needs to be done to make them less specialized. I think I saw someone post a suggestion somewhere to decrease firing rate while decreasing reload time also in order to nerf burst damage while retaining overall dps.

Barring that, I think slow-firing hard-hitting Gauss Cannons would fit the NC MO nicely.

[AThreatToYou]

Barring that, I think slow-firing hard-hitting Gauss Cannons would fit the NC MO nicely.

>slug rounds

but yeah.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by klossboss

And I gave very valid points and supporting facts to "our" viewpoint. Do you not agree that infantry battles/fights occur more frequently in CQB situations than mid to long range?

Yes, I am asking why a scat/hacksaw max would be defending such a WIDE open area when you guys all prominently say how horrible your MAXes are at range. Which is a very well know fact that I won't disagree with at all. So if he had of known that like he does, why would he be in a position on the lower level where he is hardly effective at all and now near a stairwell, or perhaps the capture point or the SCU generator.

I'm trying to visualize the scenario he is stating and telling him, like what other NC members have stated to the rest of us (VS/TR) as in, how we shouldn't engage NC MAXes within 10m or die. And I am telling him where he went wrong.

Also, I would gladly help "test" but as it stands right now my laptop I'm on cannot run PS2 as I am on business travel. And it doesn't require PSU forum members to do these tests. Just do it yourself with outfit members. Not difficult at all.

Your now saying that NC MAXes should stay in pure CQC areas and not even try to defend more vital spots? The cap point and SCU gen are far to open and have near unlimited ways to be flanked if the enemy is on the ground floor. You hold all doors (rear vehicle bay, the 2 shielded sides of the main vehicle bay, 2 back doors, and lift pads) or you let LAs run the entire tech plant with it's zero roofs on the 2nd floor and the SCU shield gen is just high enough for Infs to snipe all day from the back end of the 2nd floor.

Back on topic. Are you now telling me that you WANT NC MAXes to camp in the smallest of places and are agreeing that they have little to no value outside of a pure CQC area? The very thing you and others have been auguring your hate over? Make up your mind man.

To answerer you first question. The way I see fights go is them starting at long range and slowly getting to CQC. With most of time spent getting to the CQC areas and once there fights are over in moments. Med range is what Id call the norm, around the 50m mark that covers a courtyard. This is of course if the base is defended. Ghost caps ignore most of this and it's a bum rush to the cap point and spawn camping.

Attackers have to now work to enter a courtyard and it's a battle in itself over the shield gens and control over that courtyard to let attacking armor in for a mob-up. It's only after the attackers get past that is where real CQC fights happen and before then both the TR and VS MAXes HGM type weapons are FAR better. They can be used at near any range to lock down an area with their ammo supplies and not having to reload after every burst. A TR or VS MAX at 30m is DEADLY to troops, a NC MAX at that range is shit. TR and VS MAXes rule courtyards, NC MAXes only rule indoors.

Edit addition-
-Varsam

Sorry about seeming to ignore you and not fully reading your post. It takes me a LONG time to type out my thoughts and often a few others post before I can finish. (this one took 30-45 minutes, and the edit alone took another 10). Here's a reply to your repost.


"NC maxes have capabilities that the other empires simply do not have. This is the same reasoning behind the magrider nerf (poorly implemented as it was), and so should be sound reasoning behind a scatmax nerf."

That isn't true. It's true that NC MAXes are better indoors, but ONLY indoors and are outplayed by everything in the game outside of CQC. I see it as the TR and VS MAXes having abilities the NC MAX doesn't. Being able to engage and kill at near any range. That's why Mags got nerfed. They could keep firing on targets while never having to be at risk themselves thanks to their movement. NC MAXes are forced into grenade spam areas and infantry fights if they want to be of use. With the limited ammo and constant reloads needed a NC MAX can never take on more than 3 people before being forced into a retreat even within those 5m.

[elementHTTP]

NC max needs moar dakka
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQWq1Z-J-EE

[Masterr]

Nerf scatmax against other max units. Keep scatmax dmg against regular infantry.

Biolab setting - scatmax vs TR/VS max = scatmax wins. Especially if he has hacksaws.

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by Masterr

Nerf scatmax against other max units. Keep scatmax dmg against regular infantry.

Biolab setting - scatmax vs TR/VS max = scatmax wins. Especially if he has hacksaws.

I absolutely hate this generalisation. Its all about range. I dont want to see the factions homogenized into virtual clones.

[Sledgecrushr]

Of course since the nc scat mac is so op then there have to be a few dedicated nc scat max users on the top of the leaderboards. Show me your proof that this unit is op.

Edit*. So I took my own advice and looked at the leaderboards here on psu. For Connery I only looked at the top fifteen. The first eleven were all engineers, number twelve is a HA and the rest are engineers. Fourteen out of the top fifteen mostly play engineer which means that they are mostly all HE kill whore spawncampers. Air did not deserve the flak armor buff they just received in the last patch.

[Sprintfox]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Of course since the nc scat mac is so op then there have to be a few dedicated nc scat max users on the top of the leaderboards. Show me your proof that this unit is op.

Me, today.
I have to agree in some way, Scat + Falcon are OP.

[typhaon]

I've put out stats like that with a ScatMAX.

I could easily show you those stats with TR and VS MAX units, as well.

[Sprintfox]

Originally Posted by typhaon

I've put out stats like that with a ScatMAX.

I could easily show you those stats with TR and VS MAX units, as well.

Well, both TR and VS, which tried to get into the Biolab, have lost a huge amount of MAXes. And they had also engineers repairing them.

[Maniya]

Bio lab Bio lab Bio lab. so much Bio labbing. How about we call it Biolabside 2?