Higby on Magriders

[ChipMHazard]

Mr. MrBloodworth, Mr. Revanmug and Mr. MurderBunneh.


Now, don't make me pop my monocle while going "My word!".

Originally Posted by Assist

[...] they just feel the need to stalk me on whatever forum I use.

Oh I very much doubt that's the case. There will always be people who disagree with one's own opinion on a subject, doesn't mean that it goes any deeper than that in terms of motive.

[Koadster]

The mag vs prowler kd pre gu2 makes me sad. No wonder I felt more safer killing a mag in my lighting then my prowler. Good to see the changes have had a positive equalization between tank battles. Also funny how the mag is crazy op and vs defended that fact now vs are crying more then NC ever did.

To make the tanks more even perhaps reduce the prowlers buff about 5-8%. See if it levels out tank vs tank battles moreso.

I'm glad we don't have a total pos mbt anymore.

[Bear]

Originally Posted by Assist

Don't matter to me, some people never grow up. There's more than a few who post that are disgruntled with me who just can't accept the fact that some players are simply better than them. From the hackusations to the constant /yell spams I get wherever I go, they just feel the need to stalk me on whatever forum I use. There's a reason I've never posted who or where my NC character plays, it's to avoid these people. Forums for games are for players to express their issues with the game/community, so if people want to show themselves to consistently be asshats that's their choice. Some people attempt to keep it constructive and always on point, but every community has their bottom dwellers. It's easier to ignore people on forums, the only ones that get me are the ones who have alts to TK me, though they tend to at least have a sense of humor.

I don't want to destroy your impressive ego but prior to this discussion I've never heard of you. To me you're just another purple spandex wearing VS to be shot at.

One fact does remain though! Despite your overwhelming arrogance, despite numerous claims that you were correct in your analysis, despite opinions in opposition to the factual information presented, you remain completely, entirely and unequivocally wrong on virtually every point.

Now you've transitioned from the crusading voice of the VS to being a victim because of your awesomeness? You sir, are a piece of work.

[MrBloodworth]

Originally Posted by Assist

Don't matter to me, some people never grow up. There's more than a few who post that are disgruntled with me who just can't accept the fact that some players are simply better than them. From the hackusations to the constant /yell spams I get wherever I go, they just feel the need to stalk me on whatever forum I use. There's a reason I've never posted who or where my NC character plays, it's to avoid these people. Forums for games are for players to express their issues with the game/community, so if people want to show themselves to consistently be asshats that's their choice. Some people attempt to keep it constructive and always on point, but every community has their bottom dwellers. It's easier to ignore people on forums, the only ones that get me are the ones who have alts to TK me, though they tend to at least have a sense of humor.

Holy ego batman. All that to say "I'm sorry, I was wrong. I said some nasty things to people, I'm also sorry for that"". When wrong, choose martyrdom!

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

[CENTER]Mr. MrBloodworth,

I am constructive most times, until the unreasonable come out to a thread. Again, not every side of a discussion needs a platform. Some need to be ignored.

[maradine]

Originally Posted by Assist

Forums for games are for players to express their issues with the game/community, so if people want to show themselves to consistently be asshats that's their choice. Some people attempt to keep it constructive and always on point, but every community has their bottom dwellers.

I agree. You'd do well to come up for air occasionally.

[Frozenland]

Originally Posted by Rothnang

You can dodge just fine in a Prowler or Vanguard, read my above post. But yea, some kind of gun stabilization would have been a MUCH better approach to balance than what we have now.

Hey how about making the cannon aim point stable while in motion. In other words, you ALWAYS point at the same spot if you do not move your mouse. That will make tanks easier to aim. I personally do not play NC or TR yet, but I felt the same in Lightning, where I could hardly hit while moving.

Nonetheless, the magrider isn't as great as you all think it is. The reverse and strafe speed is pretty bad, so in situations where you need to run away, you have to turn around and let your back face the enemy, whereas in Vanguard or Prowler you can just turn sideways while being able to still shoot the enemy, and with reinforced side armor it is still pretty tough.


I do not know why they made the driver the gunner in PS2. It used to be that the driver just minds driving and gunner just minds aiming. I guess this is their way of promoting more vehicle play?
If they switch back to PS1 style MBT setup, then Vanguard and Prowler will be alot easier to play in.

[Chewy]

Im thinking that the reason just about everyone thought that Mags where the most pulled MBT was because you could always find one in a fight. I didn't matter if the fight just started or ended, there was almost always Mags around when other MBTs where not. How many of use bothered to learn the names of the mass of MBTs in a fight? I don't and treated each MBT that I see as a new tank, even if it's the same one that's been camping an area all day. If I keep seeing Mags the longer into fights we get I ALWAYS thought "How fucking many of those things are there to keep these numbers?" and Id bet that this is the same thought many others have.

Think about the Libby spam before AA buffs. The skies where FILLED with more gunships than clouds and everyone thought that they where coming in masses. But in truth they just didn't die and/or never pushed out of the area.

To be honest it's a fucking wonder that Prows aren't kicking all kinds of asses with how many of them are pulled thanks to recent buffs. I never knew the TR as smart people (joke), but damn. How bad does a player base have to be to outnumber factions in not only troops but armor as well by a good bit and STILL get their asses kicked in fights.

[Dkamanus]

The graphs make sense if you think that VS in most servers is the lowest population. While under the impression that magriders seemed more seen around the clock, what happened is that we actually saw VS zerging more with Magriders the TR with prowler and NC with vanguards.

Since the magrider alone was more powerful, a zerg could actually be unstoppable. NC had to pull a lot more armour to counter the VS most of the time. Considering this (and that NC has the second largest pop in most servers, TR bing first), you can actually extrapolate that the TR and NC were pulling more tanks out on a player basis, but since the magrider could survive MUCH longer, it's KDR was much bigger despite the lower amount of magriders pulled.

Both graphs are excelent and provide a lot of objectivity.

[Rothnang]

Originally Posted by Frozenland

Hey how about making the cannon aim point stable while in motion. In other words, you ALWAYS point at the same spot if you do not move your mouse. That will make tanks easier to aim. I personally do not play NC or TR yet, but I felt the same in Lightning, where I could hardly hit while moving.

That is what I think they should have done instead of upping bullet speed.

Originally Posted by Chewy

To be honest it's a fucking wonder that Prows aren't kicking all kinds of asses with how many of them are pulled thanks to recent buffs. I never knew the TR as smart people (joke), but damn. How bad does a player base have to be to outnumber factions in not only troops but armor as well by a good bit and STILL get their asses kicked in fights.

I strongly suspect that what Higbys graphs don't show at all is that Prowlers were racking up a ton more infantry kills than Magriders before the patch. A huge number of people who geared out their Magrider went for the Saron, which is a great anti tank weapon, but pretty awful against infantry. Conversely a ton of people who geared up their Prowlers went for HE cannons and turned their Prowler into an infantry-killer.

I seriously don't think the numbers that show that the Magrider was outperforming the prowler 3 to 1 are indicative only of the Magrider being overpowered, but on some level also simply represent the fact that one tank has traditionally always been fitted for anti-armor and the other for anti-infantry.


My biggest beef with the Prowler buffs is that in lockdown mode they can now hit aircraft pretty easily with AP shells. That's just not at all something that they need to be balanced against Magriders.

[MrBloodworth]

Originally Posted by Rothnang

A huge number of people who geared out their Magrider went for the Saron, which is a great anti tank weapon, but pretty awful against infantry. Conversely a ton of people who geared up their Prowlers went for HE cannons and turned their Prowler into an infantry-killer.

I run stock cannon P2-120 HEAT ( No AP, no HE ) and a Vulcan ( Pre-patch EXTREMELY short range, basically a shot gun ) on my Prowler and have top armor and racer 3 ( may be 4 now ). I also have radar so I see those mine placing bastards coming ( 50M ).

I am a tank killer. In this set up, the ONLY advantage I have in getting more troop kills is that I have two shots should the first one miss.

I think this "TR only spec prowlers for AI" is another myth. Most of my outfit are set up the same way. Most variations are in the up armor ( Front, side, top ).

Pre-patch none of my Tank killing spec matters when facing a Mag rider. They ether run right over me and then flip around to the back, dodge my shots if they are at range ( Because the projectiles were slow ) or just took it as there is never an instance of a mag showing you any other facing than the front, unless they did not know you were there.

Mag riders took no damage if you hit UNDER them, they can side step your shots, or just boost away behind you and flip a bitch and you are dead.

If a mag decides to get behind a prowler, it will. No amount of turning the body, or the gun will stop this. The mag can get behind you and hit you twice before your turret or body turns to face.

[Forsaken One]

While them going over hills might be seen as bad, right now at least for the bridge fights they SHOULD be able to go around the bridge. Why?

Because the Mags main power is move ability. Not just "strafing" but movement as a whole. This is why in PS1 they could go over water. Fact is, there is no water in ps2 when there should be.

Its cheating the Mag out of the ability to attack at angles and bypass bridges that falls under "move ability"

Yes, there are the VERY steep hills and stuff that should keep out all land vehicles HOWEVER there should also be places only Flashes, Sundys, and mag riders can climb and go.

[MrBloodworth]

No one took your ability to not use bridges away.

[EnderVS]

Originally Posted by MrBloodworth

I run stock cannon P2-120 HEAT ( No AP, no HE ) and a Vulcan ( Pre-patch EXTREMELY short range, basically a shot gun ) on my Prowler and have top armor and racer 3 ( may be 4 now ). I also have radar so I see those mine placing bastards coming ( 50M ).

I am a tank killer. In this set up, the ONLY advantage I have in getting more troop kills is that I have two shots should the first one miss.

I think this "TR only spec prowlers for AI" is another myth. Most of my outfit are set up the same way. Most variations are in the up armor ( Front, side, top ).

Pre-patch none of my Tank killing spec matters when facing a Mag rider. They ether run right over me and then flip around to the back, dodge my shots if they are at range ( Because the projectiles were slow ) or just took it as there is never an instance of a mag showing you any other facing than the front, unless they did not know you were there.

Mag riders took no damage if you hit UNDER them, they can side step your shots, or just boost away behind you and flip a bitch and you are dead.

If a mag decides to get behind a prowler, it will. No amount of turning the body, or the gun will stop this. The mag can get behind you and hit you twice before your turret or body turns to face.

Good thing your HEAT rounds do better at killing infantry than the Mag's HE rounds too huh (ok realistically, maybe not better but they seem to kill me on the move quite frequently)? If Higby were to post the MBT vs. Infantry stats similar to these other stats he's posted, and they showed similar mag dominance or not skewed to the Prowler at all, i'd drop the mag issue forever.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by MrBloodworth

I am constructive most times, until the unreasonable come out to a thread. Again, not every side of a discussion needs a platform. Some need to be ignored.

Heh, I would be lying If I said I didn't agree with that view.

Originally Posted by Rothnang

I seriously don't think the numbers that show that the Magrider was outperforming the prowler 3 to 1 are indicative only of the Magrider being overpowered, but on some level also simply represent the fact that one tank has traditionally always been fitted for anti-armor and the other for anti-infantry.

My biggest beef with the Prowler buffs is that in lockdown mode they can now hit aircraft pretty easily with AP shells. That's just not at all something that they need to be balanced against Magriders.

I've never understood the whole Prowler being more of an anti-infantry tank. I mean it is but I've never been under the impression that, that was what they had in mind when they designed it. Especially after Higby's reddit posts before the patch.

Great, that's all the game needs. Another tank that can snipe aircraft

[Rothnang]

Well, I'd really like to see the statistics on infantry kills and general survivability of the tanks.

I mean, the Tank vs. Tank K/D that we're seeing is missing SOMETHING. We all agree that the Magrider was the best tank pre-patch, but it wasn't 3 times better than the Prowler in every single regard. That's just something the "OMG, Magrider so OP!" crowd likes to read into the graph that simply wasn't true. I've used Prowlers and Magriders long before the patch, and the Prowler was definitely worse, but not by anywhere near as huge of a margin as the graph makes it look.


The reason why the Prowler was considered a great anti-infantry tank was because the other tank cannons overkill infantry by a lot, so having two weaker shots is simply better. Also the biggest disadvantage of the Prowler for a long time was recoil throwing the second shot off, so shooting at targets that would die from the splash alone was a lot easier with it than shooting at things that require direct hits.