Warning, very unpopular opinion! Why kill-cam desperately needs to return

[Ertwin]

As for your "there's too many angles of attack, it's hard" arguement, there's really only 3. Above, Below, and Even. All the new players have to do is be aware that.

As people have said, there's plenty of tutorials on youtube, and on the fourms. If someone is having trouble adjusting to the learning curve, they can either ask someone in game for help, or look at tutorials.

You countered that they don't want to do that because they're casual players. Well that's the crux isn't it. If they can't be bothered to help themselves by accessing the tools already available, adding a kill cam won't help them either.

It's not to much to ask new players to invest some time in learning the game. If they don't care enough about the game to look at the bevy of tutorials or ask for help, they likely don't care enough about the game to stay long term anyway.

That isn't elitism, or a screw the casuals attitude, it's simply the truth. If they aren't already doing even the bare minimum to learn the game, a kill cam won't help them either.

[Wahooo]

Originally Posted by Ertwin

As for your "there's too many angles of attack, it's hard" arguement, there's really only 3. Above, Below, and Even. All the new players have to do is be aware that.

As people have said, there's plenty of tutorials on youtube, and on the fourms. If someone is having trouble adjusting to the learning curve, they can either ask someone in game for help, or look at tutorials.

You countered that they don't want to do that because they're casual players. Well that's the crux isn't it. If they can't be bothered to help themselves by accessing the tools already available, adding a kill cam won't help them either.

It's not to much to ask new players to invest some time in learning the game. If they don't care enough about the game to look at the bevy of tutorials or ask for help, they likely don't care enough about the game to stay long term anyway.

That isn't elitism, or a screw the casuals attitude, it's simply the truth. If they aren't already doing even the bare minimum to learn the game, a kill cam won't help them either.

I don't know how many different ways or times we can say the same thing. But this is a pretty good summary of the thread.

I AM NOT CONCERNED ABOUT SOME NEW PLAYERS LEARNING MY 'SECRETS' AND KEEPING AN EDGE. IVE SAID THIS REPEATEDLY BUT YET YOU ROLF KEEP TELLING ME WHAT YOU THINK I MY THINKING IS. I AM CONCERNED ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT DONT NEED A CRUTCH TO HAVE OR DEVELOP SITUATIONAL AWARENESS USING IT AGAINST ME.

Maybe Planetside as an idea is just destined to be a niche game. A big complaint about PS1 was that it was so new player unfriendly, and in PS2 there was a large focus on [so]dumbing down[/so]... er altering the game to reduce the entry barrier. Personally I think at release they failed miserably with that, no tutorial and drop pod into the biggest fight possible more often than not behind enemy lines. But there really is only so much you can do, and the game itself IS chaotic, frenetic mess. Noises all over and vehicle shells from who knows where, and light assaults and harassers buzzing in and out and SMG infils and 1hk snipers.
Long and the short of it, we want a game that IS a challenge to master, fun BECAUSE of the challenge, fun BECAUSE of the WTF moments, fun BECAUSE of the chaos. Most of us remember being new. I remember being new in PS1 when most players had already been playing for a few years. I remember playing for hours and having KD's of ~ 5/75. But continuing because the massive fight the combined arms, the movement across such a huge and varied landscapes. It took me years to get MEDIOCRE at that game, and this one. I'm NOT a good player, i'm mediocre at best, but what I can say is that looking around, taking in the scenery, and taking a few minutes to watch a battle or investigate the scenery is of major importance and simply rushing out into a battle is only going to get you killed over and over again. A kill cam doesn't solve that, maybe part of the tutorial should be simply a warning this is NOT the same shooter you are used to. If you go rushing out to run and gun you will die in horrible ways, wait and look and think about where you are going first.

You through this entire thread have really failed to show us a benefit of a kill cam other than:
It might help some new players develop some situational awareness, of some specific situations.

Yet, you've ignored the negatives that it gives MORE power and information to experienced players. Your "nope it won't I stopped watching it in BF/COD" is hardly a counter to the MANY people in this thread agreeing with the thought and my main concern. EVERYONE in this game dies to WTF moments. Even BR100's die in ways that surprise them and they don't really know what happened. But you know what? They don't rage quit over it, maybe they think about it and if it happens again THEN they will probably figure it out.

I don't know who these people are you talk about that need the kill cam to learn to look up or turn around but the way you have described the people and situations a kill cam would be beneficial... I (and a lot of the responders here) really fail to see how it would help them . Meanwhile, those who don't need it (you know the big bad experienced players) would be able to use it to a pretty much get more power. Knowledge is everything in this game.

So, a kill cam is either of no use in 95% of the deaths in this game or it is really only of benefit to the more experienced and knowledgeable players who you are worried protecting the noobs from.

So no it isn't blind dismissing of killcam. It isn't BF/COD rage (honestly in this whole thread there has been like 2 posts that were of that sort.

Originally Posted by rolfski

There are tons of different ways to implement this and the whole notion of "kill-cam completely destroying tactical play" is just a cultivated myth amongst COD/BF3 bashers that doesn't hold any ground.

In what way has this been argued from a bashing COD/BF3 standpoint? It hasn't. People are saying there are reasons it is in COD/BF3 and see why but these are different games and different paces, and a killcam DOES have a negative effect on PS2 tactical play. IT DOES HOLD GROUND you are talking to experienced players all of whom are not concerned about new players learning most of the people in this thread WANT more people in game, WANT new players to learn. It means bigger, better, more challenging fights. BUT we don't want our capable enemies to be given that kind of tactical knowledge about us.
Whatever way you implement the kill cam. It either has no real benefit, so then WHY? implement? or it gives too much info so it is a bad idea to implement.

[Memeotis]

How about a feature that allows you to 'save' killcam, but only allows you to access the clip an hour later?

[SerethiX]

Originally Posted by Memeotis

How about a feature that allows you to 'save' killcam, but only allows you to access the clip an hour later?

Sounds better than every other suggestion to kill cams.

It should be possible to record the combat data on PC, not the video footage, and replay it in a special client for it, where you can view it from every POV and free camera angles, to analysis tactics and maneuvers.

The record could "easily" be done by recording the network stream, or am I wrong?

SerethiX - www.serethi.de

[Baneblade]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

For you this doesn't exist as you obviously don't care about the ever increasing skill gap for newer players. Well maybe it's time to put down your short-sightedness and start caring, because in the end it will affect you as well.

I don't think you normally care either, but someone you want to play PS2 rage quit over something that was likely innocuous, so you figured you would try a Children's Crusade. Well, the Moors don't care who you send, you still aren't welcome in Killcamlessland.

[Rolfski]

Originally Posted by Kail

I do apologize if this has been brought up, I skimmed the thread. I don't think a kill-cam is useful because the situations in which it provides meaningful information are actually quite small.

Engagment sizes:

1. Small (6 people or less total): Useful
2. Medium (Around a squad or two): Could be useful
3. Large: Not very useful, too much incidental fire
4. Zerg (48+ each side): Not useful, too much incidental fire

Cause of death:

1. Infantry-died-to-vehicle: A kill-cam of the vehicle doesn't provide anything more useful than knowing you were hit by a dalton/prowler/harasser. Vehicles are already quite obvious
2. Vehicle-died-to-anything: Sure, I get some "wtf just hit me" moments, but by and large you're not confused about why your armor just exploded, and "the straw that broke the camel's bacK" is usually the least important shot there was from the perspective of figuring out what you did wrong or how to improve.
3. Infantry-died-to-infantry: Has some useful situations.

So the only really useful situations for a kill-cam is small to medium engagements of infantry. Which are the situations where stealth and tactics matter most, and what is hurt the most by a kill-cam.

I completely understand the frustration for new players trying to figure out what happened, but what you want to teach won't come from a death cam like it does in smaller FPS games. Something that would work a lot better would be to show your character, with red markers showing where and what damage hit you. Seeing you took 80% damage from the side via a grenade and then 1 headshot from the back gives the player far more feedback about -why- they died (or seeing that you got shot by 6 different people - probably a good indication you're standing somewhere out in the open)

In large, chaotic fights it is still useful because it gives you better understanding of the tactical situation (like getting flanked). Also, there tends to be a lot more farming going on in big fights and kill-cam can prevent in running into the same farm twice.
And in infantry vs vehicles situations, it's particularly helpful against tank farms.

As for your solution to focus on your character instead of the enemy after you die, I consider that kill-cam as well. As I said, there are tons of ways to implement kill-cam.

Originally Posted by Ertwin

As for your "there's too many angles of attack, it's hard" arguement, there's really only 3. Above, Below, and Even.

Mathematics doesn't agree with you.

As people have said, there's plenty of tutorials on youtube, and on the fourms. If someone is having trouble adjusting to the learning curve, they can either ask someone in game for help, or look at tutorials.

Good game design shouldn't rely on external sources to make you a better player.

Originally Posted by Wahooo

Long and the short of it, we want a game that IS a challenge to master, fun BECAUSE of the challenge, fun BECAUSE of the WTF moments, fun BECAUSE of the chaos.

A challenge to master, fine. But it also needs to be easy and fun to get into and right now, the game is neither of that. As a new player, you just die and die over again, looking at some depressing death screen that teaches you nothing, nor does it make your death more fun or entertaining. And the depressing and useless KDR staring at you doesn't help either. It's just bad game design.

Yet, you've ignored the negatives that it gives MORE power and information to experienced players.

Told you before. That's simply not true. New players die a lot more, therefore watch a lot more kill-cam and therefore learn at a much faster pace.
BR 100's die occasionally and when they do, they most of the time already know what killed them. Occasionally it actually teaches them something and therefore they learn at a much slower pace.

This is exactly what a kill-cam intends to do: It levels the playing field and makes dying a lot more fun and rewarding.

[Ertwin]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Good game design shouldn't rely on external sources to make you a better player.

I've been playing video games for 26 years, up until the internet was a thing, they always had manuals, you know, an outside source. For a console game or a single player game you could make an argument that looking things up online shouldn't be mandatory due to no guarantee of internet.

However PS2 is an online game, everyone who plays it has internet access, and no excuse not to look for help online if they need it. Consider the online resources as a detailed extended manual.

But if you choose to ignore that, you completely skipped over the fact that new players can ask for help in game (in game resource) There are lots of players who are more than willing to help out newbies with everything you claim they need a kill cam for.

But you can argue that they don't want to/shouldn't have to do X, Y, or Z all day, but the point remains that if they don't care enough to do XYZ, a kill cam isn't going to be a magical cure all.

[Ruffdog]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

I also explained that youtubes are not for casuals. This important target group for this game simply doesn't bother searching for them. If this game is not giving them a satisfactory sense of progression from all their numerous deaths IN the game, then they just bail out and SOE has lost another customer.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Good game design shouldn't rely on external sources to make you a better player.

Then what if the player get links to these tutorials from SOE when downloading the 8 gigs or whatever it is now? If casuals can't be arsed to see them then, they are lost from the start.

It also really needs to be more emphasised that:

• You WILL die a lot.
• This is not important, life is cheap. Sometimes you have to die.

If they don't get a buzz the first time they suicide-charge a cap point alongside some buddies and kick out another faction, then they should stick to pwning in COD and BF. That's not being elitist; this game's not for everyone and it should stop dumbing down to pretend that it is.

[Ertwin]

Links on the launch page works, I think they had a few when the game first launched.

[Klypto]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

They don't suffer from it, really, because you should be mobile anyways. Aside from the horrible farming dynamics it generates, camping multiple times from a single spot should be punished not rewarded, like real battle mechanics.

I'm sorry what? There should be camping in this game. Lots of it. There are snipers. That's what they do.


If baddies can't handle it they definitely shouldn't be playing.

[Ertwin]

Originally Posted by Klypto

I'm sorry what? There should be camping in this game. Lots of it. There are snipers. That's what they do.


If baddies can't handle it they definitely shouldn't be playing.

Or you know, there's the whole defending cap points. Being punished for doing one of the primary goals of the game is the height of stupidity.

[Wahooo]

Originally Posted by Wahooo

You through this entire thread have really failed to show us a benefit of a kill cam other than:
It might help some new players develop some situational awareness of some specific situations.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

A challenge to master, fine. But it also needs to be easy and fun to get into and right now, the game is neither of that. As a new player, you just die and die over again, looking at some depressing death screen that teaches you nothing, nor does it make your death more fun or entertaining. And the depressing and useless KDR staring at you doesn't help either. It's just bad game design.

Told you before. That's simply not true. New players die a lot more, therefore watch a lot more kill-cam and therefore learn at a much faster pace.
BR 100's die occasionally and when they do, they most of the time already know what killed them. Occasionally it actually teaches them something and therefore they learn at a much slower pace.

This is exactly what a kill-cam intends to do: It levels the playing field and makes dying a lot more fun and rewarding.

Where does KDR stare you in the face? It isn't on the kill screen, it isn't on the HUD. If you hit tab it is there as just another part of your play session stats. It can be a nice metric of how you are playing for the day, it can be ignored or it can be stared at lovingly while you stroke your own epeen. It is hardly an issue and having it there hardly takes away from the enjoyment of a bad player.

EVERYONE in this game dies a lot. Even someone that has a 4 or 5 KDR dies. And as I just pointed out and you ignored EVERYONE dies to WTF moments, and as I pointed out repeatedly yet you still don't seem to grasp a better player who already has the situational awareness is going to gain more, and utilize the kill cam better than the noob. New player has an AA max and happens to get into a good area flanking all the ESFs focusing on a battle. Gets a kill on a vet, who has reduced timer and knows the map. Vet comes back and kills that AA nest. No way the same thing is reversed with a new pilot vs a vet with AA, BUT that vet in the ESF will be able to come back and hammer a vet in the AA utilizing the kill cam.

Dieing more often isn't helped by a killcam when it is only some situational times that teach you about your death.

How exactly does a kill cam make dieing fun? There are silly deaths, team mate shoots down a lib and the shrapnel falls on you or running in an outfit convoy and get knocked sideways and roll down a cliff in a sunderer killing a whole squad, kill cam does what?
I don't see that from the BF killcam you posted a page ago that turns and highlights the guy that killed you, how does that make dieing fun?

Originally Posted by Wahooo

You through this entire thread have really failed to show us a benefit of a kill cam other than:
It might help some new players develop some situational awareness of some specific situations.

[Taramafor]

Let's not forget ALL THE FRIENDLY FIRE AND RUNNING OVER TEAM MATES! Looking at idiots that aren't aware of their surroundings would make me more depressed for sure, and a killcam wouldn't solve anything there because there's already a BEEP with a message.

Just had to get that out there. >_>

[Rolfski]

Originally Posted by Ertwin

However PS2 is an online game, everyone who plays it has internet access, and no excuse not to look for help online if they need it. Consider the online resources as a detailed extended manual.

It's critical for appropriate learning mechanisms to be provided within the game itself if you want to attract a more casual gamer, which is definitely a target audience for this title. Especially if it's F2P. Most people have less patience with free titles and can't be bothered with YouTube tutorials. If the experience is frustrating, they just uninstall it an move on to the next shooter.
Ask Higby how many customers PS2 lost because of not having an in-game tutorial, despite providing a whole YouTube guide series. He will tell you that the in-game tutorial did wonders for player retention, which is key in a F2P business model.

Originally Posted by Ruffdog

If they don't get a buzz the first time they suicide-charge a cap point alongside some buddies and kick out another faction, then they should stick to pwning in COD and BF. That's not being elitist; this game's not for everyone and it should stop dumbing down to pretend that it is.

For this game to survive they just can't rely on a niche hardcore player base that slowly dies out over time as PS1 did. F2P means you need lots of players all the time. As much as you might despise the COD/BF crowd, for SOE they're definitely a target audience.

Originally Posted by Klypto

I'm sorry what? There should be camping in this game. Lots of it. There are snipers. That's what they do.

Kill-cam doesn't stop you from camping. You either stay on your camping spot and accept the risk of people coming after you (which can be used as a baiting tactic in itself) or you move to the next camping spot.

Originally Posted by Ertwin

Or you know, there's the whole defending cap points. Being punished for doing one of the primary goals of the game is the height of stupidity.

If you defend a cap point you're most likely to do that from a well known position, covered by cross fire from your team mates. Kill-cam isn't going to change that. Knowing where the defending enemy is doesn't automatically mean you can easily take him out. Good defence typically involves holding on to a position the enemy is aware of and keeps throwing forces at. Hardly any "punishment" there.

Originally Posted by Wahooo

Where does KDR stare you in the face? It isn't on the kill screen, it isn't on the HUD. If you hit tab it is there as just another part of your play session stats. It can be a nice metric of how you are playing for the day, it can be ignored or it can be stared at lovingly while you stroke your own epeen. It is hardly an issue and having it there hardly takes away from the enjoyment of a bad player.

Believe me, KDR DOES take away a lot of enjoyment from the game. I've seen every outfit I'm in getting corrupted by it at some point but let's leave that to another discussion.

New player has an AA max and happens to get into a good area flanking all the ESFs focusing on a battle. Gets a kill on a vet, who has reduced timer and knows the map. Vet comes back and kills that AA nest. No way the same thing is reversed with a new pilot vs a vet with AA, BUT that vet in the ESF will be able to come back and hammer a vet in the AA utilizing the kill cam.

• The upcoming resource changes (no timers any more) will make it so that the new pilot can take quick revenge as well.
• Nine out of ten times you already knew where that AA nest was before you died. In case you did not you can likely detract it from the dead marker on the map and the red hud flashes direction.
• As has been argued in this topic before, kill-cam is not a good revenge tool because revenge generally being pointless in this game. Game play is generally to hectic and fluent for that. Chances are the front line is already moved by the time you revisit that AA nest or the enemy has now air of its own to prevent you from taking revenge.
• If you shoot down an ESF you can anticipate him revisiting your position and have a trap for him ready next time. Every BR can figure that out so no kill-cam advantages for vets here.

Dieing more often isn't helped by a killcam when it is only some situational times that teach you about your death.

It is actually. Dying more often with kill-cam means more often you will be provided with information that teach you about situational awareness. There's just no denying that.

How exactly does a kill cam make dieing fun? There are silly deaths, team mate shoots down a lib and the shrapnel falls on you or running in an outfit convoy and get knocked sideways and roll down a cliff in a sunderer killing a whole squad, kill cam does what?
I don't see that from the BF killcam you posted a page ago that turns and highlights the guy that killed you, how does that make dieing fun?

Anything besides the horrible death screen we have now will make dying more entertaining and rewarding. No matter how you implement a kill-cam, it couldn't be worse than what we have now.

Originally Posted by Taramafor

Let's not forget ALL THE FRIENDLY FIRE AND RUNNING OVER TEAM MATES! Looking at idiots that aren't aware of their surroundings would make me more depressed for sure, and a killcam wouldn't solve anything there because there's already a BEEP with a message.

You can always skip the kill-cam footage. No need to get depressed by it.

You through this entire thread have really failed to show us a benefit of a kill cam other than:
It might help some new players develop some situational awareness of some specific situations.

This is more than enough motivation to reconsider kill-cam. New player satisfaction and retention is absolutely key to sustain a F2P business model. Especially when this entire thread has failed to show any severe disadvantage of kill-cam.

[Thunderhawk]

Wibble


*This post has as much sense as the original Topic.