Why K:D, Deaths, streaks and other stats are bad, and how PS2 can evolve the genre - Page 11

VioletZero · 2012-03-07, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by Khellendros

But why must it be either/or? I don't understand why we cannot just have both?

Honestly, I don't see any actual harm in having more stats.

I agree.

The problem is that they are played up as a priority when there's far more to Planetside than kills. Especially compared to other shooters.

DaddyTickles · 2012-03-07, 08:49 PM

Having read the entire mofo thread, score AND K/D. I mean, its not rocket science is it? Give the people the tools and let them choose the relevance to them.

noxious · 2012-03-07, 08:54 PM

I agree with the OP. I dislike achievements in multiplayer games for the same reason. People play for the stats/achievements, and not for the success of their team. It's not enough that I ignore these things to focus on success because it is frustrating to see my team fail when people are not focusing on our team's success before the success of whatever objective that they want to accomplish.

Unfortunately, statistics and achievements are a necessary evil. I think everyone, even the developers, realize that team-based gameplay in team-based games, from Battlefield 3 to Tribes Ascend, is hurt by the inclusion of statistics and achievements, but they're extremely successful at incentivizing players to play; the importance of getting people hooked is even more important in a free to play model where you need to get players involved enough that they want to spend their money on the game.

SKYeXile · 2012-03-07, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by JHendy

It isn't the same shit. You can't consciously avoid dangerous situations if you want your Score/D to improve, assuming you gain the most score from teamwork actions.

Avoiding getting stuck in will be counter-productive for anyone who wants a good ratio if the dangerous situations you put yourself in are the ones that benefit your Score/D the most.

You're going to have to put yourself in harms way to improve that stat, (unless you're performing non combat roles such as transportation.)

The same is not necessarily true of K/D, which improves the most when you avoid high risk situations.

There's a big difference. One encourages people to get stuck in, and rewards them for doing so, the other does not.

well as you mentioned, you could simply do nothing but support and get an extremely high score/death, so it would be kinda meaningless.

ThGlump · 2012-03-07, 08:59 PM

This is pointless. There cant be number of death stat as there are no deaths in ps. You just destroy body that will be recreated in spawn tube. You cant die on Auraxis.

Aurmanite · 2012-03-07, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by ThGlump

This is pointless. There cant be number of death stat as there are no deaths in ps. You just destroy body that will be recreated in spawn tube. You cant die on Auraxis.

lol...come on.

**Malorn** · 2012-03-07, 09:03 PM

Stats and achievements are indeed powerful, but they can be used for good.

One reason I like having a unified "score" stat is because it gives the developers the power to encourage or discourage behaviors when that is the primary measure of success. If there is a behavior out there that they want more poeple to do, they can give it a higher score value. If the risk and reward are right then more people will start doing that activity. Likewise they can also discourage certain behaviors by lowering their score value through a variety of mechanisms.

It actually gives the developers power to shape how we play the game and what activities we value.

They could factor in deaths too by subtracting score or giving you a buff after you spawn that lowers the score you create for a period of time. That is one way they could counter graveyard-rush type tactics if people are concerned about zergging and it becomes a problem.

It's passive, but it does work to encourage and discourage behavior, which is all the more reason why it should be the primary stat we see and things which encourage poor behaviors like death stat tracking should not be prominent or simply not exist at all.

Aurmanite · 2012-03-07, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Stats and achievements are indeed powerful, but they can be used for good.

One reason I like having a unified "score" stat is because it gives the developers the power to encourage or discourage behaviors when that is the primary measure of success. If there is a behavior out there that they want more poeple to do, they can give it a higher score value. If the risk and reward are right then more people will start doing that activity. Likewise they can also discourage certain behaviors by lowering their score value through a variety of mechanisms.

It actually gives the developers power to shape how we play the game and what activities we value.

They could factor in deaths too by subtracting score or giving you a buff after you spawn that lowers the score you create for a period of time. That is one way they could counter graveyard-rush type tactics if people are concerned about zergging and it becomes a problem.

It's passive, but it does work to encourage and discourage behavior, which is all the more reason why it should be the primary stat we see and things which encourage poor behaviors like death stat tracking should not be prominent or simply not exist at all.

How about they leave us alone as much as possible? Give us the playground and let us determine whether we like the monkey bars or the slide.

The less the devs try to influence behavior the better. With in reason of course.

**Malorn** · 2012-03-07, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Aurmanite

How about they leave us alone as much as possible? Give us the playground and let us determine whether we like the monkey bars or the slide.

The less the devs try to influence behavior the better. With in reason of course.

Can't un-ring that bell.

As some folks have pointed out, people expect stats these days and its an important thing in games as a measuring stick.

What we can do now is be careful how it is used, be judicious in which stats get tracked, and even more judicious about which stats get promoted.

Which is pretty much the topic of this thread.

JHendy · 2012-03-07, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

well as you mentioned, you could simply do nothing but support and get an extremely high score/death, so it would be kinda meaningless.

Well, there needs to be a separate stat for supportive actions anyway, since K/D ratio doesn't represent how well a support player is doing.

I think Score/D would work perfectly for everything else.

One thing's for sure though, and that is that K/D ratio is most definitely not an appropriate primary stat in a game like this. This needs looking in to. And I need sleep. Two things.

Graywolves · 2012-03-07, 09:16 PM

I can't wait for the flame wars and hate tells when people look each other up on the site and make fun of how many times another person has died.

**Malorn** · 2012-03-07, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by Graywolves

I can't wait for the flame wars and hate tells when people look each other up on the site and make fun of how many times another person has died.

Another reason why negative stats are bad.

Stats should cover accomplishments, not anything that could be construed as a failure.

Aurmanite · 2012-03-07, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Can't un-ring that bell.

As some folks have pointed out, people expect stats these days and its an important thing in games as a measuring stick.

What we can do now is be careful how it is used, be judicious in which stats get tracked, and even more judicious about which stats get promoted.

Which is pretty much the topic of this thread.

Right...I'm not sure what this post is saying. There are words but put into context it's just the same exact thing you keep saying over and over. You didn't actually address my point.

Don't censor my stats, bro.

**Malorn** · 2012-03-07, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by JHendy

Well, there needs to be a separate stat for supportive actions anyway, since K/D ratio doesn't represent how well a support player is doing.

I think Score/D would work perfectly for everything else.

One thing's for sure though, and that is that K/D ratio is most definitely not an appropriate primary stat in a game like this. This needs looking in to. And I need sleep. Two things.

The question I would ask you is what is score/D measuring? What meaning does it have to the player?

What does Score per Death offer that Score per Unit Time does not? Your ability to stay alive? What value does that have? Why is it relevant?

Aurmanite · 2012-03-07, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

The question I would ask you is what is score/D measuring? What meaning does it have to the player?

What does Score per Death offer that Score per Unit Time does not? Your ability to stay alive? What value does that have? Why is it relevant?

This thread has become nothing but you gratifying yourself. In public too.

You've been given all of these answers by a number of people. You aren't accepting the fact that people want to have this information. Leaving it out would almost look like a mistake, a glaring oversight that most people would not understand.

"Why don't they record my deaths?"

"Because we didn't feel like you could handle the negativity that is associated with your in game failure and we thought it would lead you to behavior we didn't approve of."

"What...the...fuck?"