AGN: Community Clash Recording TXR and MERC vs NNG and TGWW - Page 11

Hamma · 2013-09-28, 01:47 PM

Alright guys, if we can't learn how to be civil and stop the mud slinging I am going to close this thread. We do this for fun, we organize these events for Outfits to enjoy playing in a competitive closed environment.

Mud slinging and personal attacks of other outfits is NOT our goal, tone it down or I will end the discussion.

TorinPS · 2013-09-28, 03:47 PM

Thanks for the clarification Torkz, should simplify things going forward.

Phrygen · 2013-09-28, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by TorinPS

Thanks for the clarification Torkz, should simplify things going forward.

It is for the best that this has been clarified.

It has also in practice however, for better or worse, sanctioned the use of ringers, assuming teams are given more than a weeks notice. Rather easy to just outfit switch the players needed 7 days before the RCCC events. Hopefully teams will actively bring in the best players and resources that their outfits are missing, so that games are a little less one sides in the nexus.

Hopefully this will result in more server vs server RCCCs.

EnderVS · 2013-09-30, 05:32 AM

Wow, that took forever to read. I was going to try and stay neutral for my own sake but am struggling with that. I thought RCCC was a means to get some groundwork on having something fun competitively in Planetside 2? They've done that to the best of their abilities in a fashion that probably could only have only been done better if they could see into the future. Please keep doing the community clashes and don't tone them down and implement silly rules that end up being "formalities" for the sake of players that think they're better than they are. People are going to get butthurt after every single clash, it happens. That's part of losing if you decide that your in-game beating wasn't thorough enough. You always have the option of taking it outside the game too.

TGWW/QRY are the same group of people, if you want them to clarify 7 days before hand, whoop dee doo now they're clarified and bringing the same people to fight. What's the excuse going to be when they ARE all under the same name? It's not the same as saying all of connery vs all of matherson's finest, not even close.

Come match day, at the end of the day, if TGWW/QRY solidified themselves under a single outfit name they would all remain under that name after any event that they came together for. There would be no need for them to leave because they are literally all playing together most of the time. If you were to bring all of Connery's elite, at the end of the day.... you go back to your individual outfits. I think the difference is pretty clear cut and the situations are not even remotely the same. Mattherson's air elite have formed their own outfits that are basically called something else across the different factions, connery's air elite have not done this, they are not on the same team day in day out because they aren't in the same "group" of gamers as TGWW/QRY/N are. The group of gamers that are generally on the same TS nightly as well.

Comparing the best vs the best isn't relevant here and to bring it up is just reaching for anything at this point. Like I said, Mattherson's air elite do play together in the same squads nightly, Connery's don't. For whatever reason that's just how it evolved on Mattherson.

DA/TGWW are probably going to work out a scrim with NUC in the near future, i'd be pretty shocked if they got mad because of something like this. Granted a scrim is different from a RCCC....sort of, but isn't the point of any type of competition to win or learn from your mistakes? If DA ends up losing some scrim or RCCC, it's on us. I could care less who was on the other team, if there were ringers, if there were rule changes. The focus for the next week would be, "given what happened, how do we react in the future?" If my guys were to come on the forum and accuse people of cheating, or rc bending rules, or ringers and such I'd tell them to stop, delete the post, and knock that shit off permanently. What you should have taken away from this was be good enough or prepared enough to adapt in any situation at any time.

If you can't do that, you're probably not going to end up doing well in any competitions as they get more and more competitive. At the end of the day, as an outfit all that matters is our own performance. Focusing on anything else at all other than moving forward (and the extent the bs in this thread has gone to) is going to be detrimental. I'm sorry if that seems like a dick thing to say, but that's how I operate my outfit, and it's worked quite well for us. If I were in MERC's situation it would simply be a, "well back to the drawing board, what can we do better, what can we do to combat this type of thing in the future." I assure you, the answer would not be, go post on the forums about changes that NEED TO HAPPEN TO BE FAIR. It'd be an internal evaluation of why things broke down and anyone that tries to derail that line of thought is hindering the getting better process. If you get a rule changed great, you still didn't go back and make yourselves better and that air is going to pound you just as hard next time. You'll be in the same position because you focused on the wrong things.

Sorry you lost, fix it. RCCC is fine. EVERYONE knew going into a Nexus fight that it's an unfinished continent. We shouldn't really even have access to it, they know its broken, saying SOE needs to fix this shit is redundant. They know too. These things should have been expected going into the match. I have a favorite saying, "Shit Happens," because it does. The only response to "Shit" is to be good enough to overcome it, or to understand "Shit" so well you can out maneuver it in the future with little extra change or skill.

Phrygen · 2013-09-30, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by EnderVS

I think the difference is pretty clear cut and the situations are not even remotely the same. Mattherson's air elite have formed their own outfits that are basically called something else across the different factions, connery's air elite have not done this, they are not on the same team day in day out because they aren't in the same "group" of gamers as TGWW/QRY/N are. The group of gamers that are generally on the same TS nightly as well.

Comparing the best vs the best isn't relevant here and to bring it up is just reaching for anything at this point. Like I said, Mattherson's air elite do play together in the same squads nightly, Connery's don't. For whatever reason that's just how it evolved on Mattherson.

Personally i don't think the differences are clear cut at all. In fact the status of TGWW/QRY is only obvious to those who know about those players, and certainly wouldn't be obvious to players on another server.

For example, how are mattherson players to know what the elite pilots on Connery actually do, what alts they have, and who the fly with? More importantly, why would most players make the effort to acquire that information.

The 7 day rule is the best thing that can be done. It sanctions the use or ringers and removes responsibility for regulation of rules on the part of RCCC, while giving spectors a better chances of seeing the best players play. Besides, its not like all the top outfits aren't going out of their way to recruit the best players possible, and there are plenty of outfits that are already going to refuse to take part in RCCCs against the top outfits unless they can bring in outside help.

Originally Posted by EnderVS

It wouldn't have been 48v48 then, how does RCCC go about pairing outfits up that are similar level. It's not really that feasible and its more up to the outfits to bring their A-Game.

That is the larger point. The more all the best players are gathered into single teams, the less competition is available, and the less likely a competitive PS2 scene with longevity will emerge. This isn't a 4v4 halo or COD competitive scene. Right now there are maybe 3-4 potential top teams imho, and then everyone else who simply can not compete. Taking mattherson for example, there is simply no one left to bring an A-game in the air besides TGWW/QRY, and those that potentially could have are losing top skilled members to TGWW/QRY. Its not like PS2 has a noticeably growing player-base, and while i'm excited to see what optimization can bring, there are many hurdles that PS2 will have to cross in order to keep growing. Just this week alone is a hurdle in the form of BF4.

So when it comes to an RCCC like this, you either let it be server vs server and bring whoever you can, or you strictly enforce outfit rules (and that is not possible). Doing something in between results in what happened during the last RCCC, and one sided route that was, personally speaking, only enjoyable because its a chance to look at the new Nexus.

I already said it in this thread, but as I see it, the MLG score/$ value on the DA site being in initial basis for salary capping teams is the best chance PS2 has of becoming MLG viable. But hey, maybe the 3-4 teams that do become MLG viable can just have alts and pretend to be a completly different team and a full 8 team league can happen

retrogreq · 2013-09-30, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Phrygen

Just this week alone is a hurdle in the form of BF4.

Not gonna lie, I'll be flying the attack helicopters around those skyscrapers all month.

LeilaniRock · 2013-09-30, 06:29 AM

^Applause!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Coltorl · 2013-09-30, 12:25 PM

This thread should be over TGWW had a group of players that were 10x better than what TxR and MERC could muster at the time. As a viewer I personally think the team's were stacked as hell and that's why I couldn't enjoy it. If this was the originally planned TxR vs NNG it would have been much more fun to watch.

Lepalose · 2013-09-30, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Dreadnaut

I said that TGWW should exit this thread, and I meant it, however I had planned on responding to this post before I exited the thread and forgot too.

If you meant it, then you should have acted upon it. Preaching about locker-room dynamics after an 'anonymous' source passes you a recording is clearly trying to infuriate my members, as sort of a 'passing-shot' as this conversation is supposed to die down.

I have no apology for you about how my players, in the moment of a loss and privately in conversation, reacted to the loss with each other. This was a private conversation, and this was venting. The passion they bring to competition is clear on the recordings, and I can understand the anger and frustration that they had. Their feelings and frustrations are their own. How we deal with that is an internal matter. Moreover, these do not represent the broader reaction within our community coming out of the loss nor the attitude of MERC leadership. Indeed, it has been a really energizing experience with some lessons that we learned from it.

To state the fact, we had a member take it into his own hands to continue to express his anger via this forum. Again, while I understand his frustrations with the situation, he is not speaking on behalf of MERC when he has posted as he too was inflammatory to this issue.

This is the only statement you will get from myself or MERC leadership on recordings of personal conversations, and of our member that was out of line in posting on forums.

Next, I understand that you believe your community of pilots across all factions constitutes the TGWW outfit. However PS2 communities are generally built around a singular faction, loyal to a certain team, one that they play continually with. This to me does not mean "play[ing] all over the place, regardless of tag ...shar[ing] many Teamspeak servers freely, bouncing from one to the other as situation warrants." And while we have numerous players including myself that will play all factions and with different groups, especially our best fliers, that does not mean by association these outfits and friends are all a part of the MERC community. So while we had offers of numerous friends and great players that are connected broadly to our community, it was our choice to follow what we believe to be the spirit of the rule and use only players directly in our outfit, that are core to our outfit, that primarily play our faction.

Now, it has been made clear that our groups differ in what we believe constitutes an outfit and community in this game for competitive play. I was concerned and knew about the situation of non-outfit members being added directly before the match, but we went into the match without raising an issue.

This issue of what constitutes an outfit is what MERC wanted clarification on after the match from the RCCC group holding these events for the future. While I too believe that a 30-day rule would be better then a 7-day rule, they have now been clear as to what the rule is. This is a positive outcome from all this mess.

People can still game the honour system (e.g. create a character on TEST server with an outfit member's name while really being a ringer), I would ask members of those outfits if they really want to be a part of a community that is willing to gut itself in order to look better for broadcasts. After all, ringers like that will only play on your side until you lose, and where will that leave you?

We went forward in the competition despite our concerns of outfit membership and the (sudden to me despite being a leader) change to spawn beacons. We did so because this is an event put on in the free time by the RCCC with PSU support. The CC is an evolving thing and I respect what they are doing with it. I had a lot of fun participating, but I believe that asking for clarification on rules is important to helping improve it. I also know that my outfit members really enjoyed it as well despite the loss, and indeed it would be something that we would like to participate with again in the future.

Finally, to address the talk about skill-level differences in this match. I believe what you saw in the NNG/TGWW vs TXR/MERC match was not a huge difference in skill levels as a whole, but a decision that we as TR leaders made with regards to air resources at the start of the match which given the map, resources and spawn options spiraled out of control. NNG & TGWW capitalized on that mistake, and should be commended for that, and for executing their plan extremely well. They have every right to be proud of that in this win. However, despite the lead in the first half, the starved resources, and issues spawning there was a period of time that TXR/MERC kept it close in the second half. So we have a single data point to judge and compare, and NNG/TGWW certainly won that one. But I believe that this one match though is not indicative of either TXR or MERCs potential, and I look forward to our future matches.

TL;DR: private conversations deserve to remain private, MERC accepts the clarification by RCCC to the rules regarding what makes a team, MERC congratulates NNG/TGWW for the win, MERC will continue to compete in the future.

retrogreq · 2013-09-30, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Lepalose

...shar[ing] many Teamspeak servers freely, bouncing from one to the other as situation warrants."

I just want things to be crystal clear, but when they were referring to multiple TS's, they are DA's, NNG's, and TGWW's. When we all aren't in TGWW's, we are in the outfit we are supporting's TS.

TorinPS · 2013-09-30, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by retrogreq

I just want things to be crystal clear, but when they were referring to multiple TS's, they are DA's, NNG's, and TGWW's. When we all aren't in TGWW's, we are in the outfit we are supporting's TS.

Unless we are collectively playing a different faction, in which we could be on any number of other Teamspeak servers. (QRY, BAX, N, etc.)

retrogreq · 2013-09-30, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by TorinPS

Unless we are collectively playing a different faction, in which we could be on any number of other Teamspeak servers. (QRY, BAX, N, etc.)

I was under the impression ironfist let the QRY TS die months ago.

TorinPS · 2013-09-30, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by retrogreq

I was under the impression ironfist let the QRY TS die months ago.

Nope.

Dreadnaut · 2013-09-30, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Lepalose

If you meant it, then you should have acted upon it. Preaching about locker-room dynamics after an 'anonymous' source passes you a recording is clearly trying to infuriate my members, as sort of a 'passing-shot' as this conversation is supposed to die down.

I'm slowly starting to lose my desire to be polite when I read things like this. No need to be snippy with me when your members are the ones that started this completely asinine TGWW bashing. I'll post as I see fit, I retract my previous statement. Now you sir have my 100% undivided attention.

Originally Posted by Lepalose

TL;DR: private conversations deserve to remain private, MERC accepts the clarification by RCCC to the rules regarding what makes a team, MERC congratulates NNG/TGWW for the win, MERC will continue to compete in the future.

Private conversations don't deserve to be kept private when your member is openly lying on a public forum and the only way for us to contradict those statements is to prove we know otherwise. We didn't steal anything, we didn't do anything wrong, we just proved your member was lying and it wasn't heresay.

No need for you to get on your horse when your members are the ones responsible for all the bickering back and forth.

Rumblepit · 2013-09-30, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Dreadnaut

I'm slowly starting to lose my desire to be polite when I read things like this. No need to be snippy with me when your members are the ones that started this completely asinine TGWW bashing. I'll post as I see fit, I retract my previous statement. Now you sir have my 100% undivided attention.

Private conversations don't deserve to be kept private when your member is openly lying on a public forum and the only way for us to contradict those statements is to prove we know otherwise. We didn't steal anything, we didn't do anything wrong, we just proved your member was lying and it wasn't heresay.

No need for you to get on your horse when your members are the ones responsible for all the bickering back and forth.

Proved he was lying??? You must mean me.What was I lying about?I did speculate that you guys went to hossin at half time, but i never accused you of it ,because I wasn't sure.Knowing what I know now,I know you didn't. From what I gathered from the QRY forum you just brought in a bunch of alts at halftime with max resources. Again not against the rules, but against the intent of the rule.

As for the intent of these rules. I think you will see most outfits have a clear understanding of these rules and wont be inviting all the ringers on their server when they show up at CC. But there are always be a few that will take it upon themselves to take advantage of the intent of these rules.That being said we now know what to expect when a matherson outfit is on CC.