Does the shallow TTK shortchange the Depth this game could have? - Page 11

psijaka · 2013-01-23, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

CoD TTK ---- PS2 TTK ----- Figgy's prefered TTK --- PS1 TTK-------------------extremely long TTK

Constant movement like headless chicken: sitting still is death by random shot (includes both CoD and PS2) -------------- Figgy's prefered TTK: Dig in to hold, twitch skill some impact to stand a chance, but caught of guard provides advantage ------ PS1: turn around freely ------------------- Big groups have too much endurance for focused fire to work (think MAX crash)

I feel it helps good players be and feel competitive and allows worse players to at least feel they did something and learn from the experience before they died a bloody death.

That suffice?

Good summary. And I wouldn't be opposed to trying out a small tweak in TTK; nothing too fundamental mind you.

Question though - are you opposed to bolt action one shot headshot kills, as this is one of the biggest causes of sudden death, especially if someone is "sitting still"?

Figment · 2013-01-23, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by psijaka

Good summary. And I wouldn't be opposed to trying out a small tweak in TTK; nothing too fundamental mind you.

Question though - are you opposed to bolt action one shot headshot kills, as this is one of the biggest causes of sudden death, especially if someone is "sitting still"?

Depends on rate of fire and accuracy (I'm opposed to twitchy no-scoping sniper rifles hipfiring accurately - that includes fast rof low damage sniper rifles being used for hipfire).

psijaka · 2013-01-23, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Deadeye

Get off your high horses, guys. We're talking about 1-1.5 second ttk vs the .5-.8 we have now. A game with this much stuff going on in it needs a slightly longer ttk than COD or battlefield because there's a ton more stuff shooting you at any given time and you need time to react.

And btw, it's far more twitch to have a lower ttk. Twitch means reaction time and when you turn a corner and come face to face with an enemy, the one with the faster reaction time is going to win in this game. And win in half a second.

Also, this game is a strategic game, not a tactical one and longer ttk promotes more strategy than a twitch arena shooter like COD.

TTK is already significantly longer in PS2 than in COD, where you can typically die in 160 - 192ms from a full auto weapon at close range (Black Ops 1 figures for time between first and killing bullet).

Perhaps this is the root of the argument; people from a COD, BF background (I include myself) are used to a brutally short TTK and think that the PS2 TTK is already quite leniently long, whereas those from a PS1 background are not used to being killed quite so quickly, and think that it is too short.

You have a point about the "rounding the corner and coming face to face with the enemy" scenario, but in those circumstances the person with the fastest twitch skills will usually win even if the TTK is longer; they will be quicker to dodge as well as fire.

Regarding strategy - I don't see that TTK makes much of an issue at all whan we are talking about the strategic aspect of the game (such as it is); it is more of a small scale tactics issue.

I do recommend that you dip in to the Firefall Open Beta next weekend; you will find a lot of twitch despite or perhaps because of the immense TTK.

psijaka · 2013-01-23, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Depends on rate of fire and accuracy (I'm opposed to twitchy no-scoping sniper rifles hipfiring accurately - that includes fast rof low damage sniper rifles being used for hipfire).

So am I - hated the cult of No Scope and Quick Scope 'leet sniprz in COD. If I hipfire a Bolt Action, it is out of desperation when "caught short" and I usually die!

Figment · 2013-01-23, 08:40 AM

Btw, the main reason I'm weary of headshot hitboxes in general (especially one shot headshots) is the aimbot potential. :/

But yeah, also the lack of predictable/controllable TTK (less ordered planning). I suppose that's more subjective. In that sense, I'd rather have the "shoot the foot, do equal damage" silliness, because then you are more predictable, much like unit vs unit damage in a RTS. Also one reason why I'm not entirely happy with random directional armour vectors (ground vehicles) in PS2.

Especially not if they make it even less random and controllable by altering what counts as front, top and side for the turret based on a hit direction vector with respect to the hull. That makes no sense at all. :/

When we're looking at vehicle TTK (sofar we're mostly looking at infantry), I'm not happy with the ease with which you can kill tanks. I'm not happy with the quantity of tanks either, but to then ruin both infantry experience with having so many and tanking experience by being so vulnerable is not inducing good game play in either case. :/

Stellarthief · 2013-01-23, 09:30 AM

Granted, I haven't played a PC FPS in a good decade so cant comment on average TTK there but I was an active Halo 3/Reach player.

I find the TTK in PS2 to be spot on. I can only reference halo where eventually I became a fan of team swat mode (no shields, no radar, no heals, no splash weapons. Only your battle rifle and you (mostly the mode I played).

After playing Team Swat for awhile I got used to the faster TTK and eventually normal mode started to bore me, mostly because I found my skill evolved very rapidly. With the lower TTK in SWAT I became much more situationally aware from sound, slight movements or just anticipating where people would be based on where I would like to be. Mistakes were not forgiven and when I was in the zone I was a demon (I think this goes for most people that played it a lot). Basically it's either you learn, adept and evolve or you get too frustrated from being owned too fast and leave.

I feel that PS2 is basically halo team swat on a grand scale. Mistakes are not forgiven both in twitch and in awareness. You can sneak up on someone but make a small mistake and you are the one who dies. Start firing too early and without preparing yourself and you are likely to die. Sneak up but dont check your 6, you are likely to get gibbed by someone in passing. Be in the wrong place and get hit by a grenade or 10. Run in the front door and die to suppressing fire..

But for all that I feel that PS2 fosters some sort of zerg mentality. There are not enough alternative ways into bases (like PS1 backdoors that you could hack open). I don't think the issue is with the TTK. I think as some other people have stated lies elsewhere.

I should also mention I have been playing FPS in general since the original Rainbow Six on MSN gaming zone - at a then competitive level. And in the end there, you had TTK in minutes not seconds. Could literally circle strafe each other for minutes, run out of ammo on all guns, no grenades and wonder...what the hell now? I think that extreme is in the past..

Ghoest9 · 2013-01-23, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Deadeye

And btw, it's far more twitch to have a lower ttk. Twitch means reaction time and when you turn a corner and come face to face with an enemy, the one with the faster reaction time is going to win in this game. And win in half a second.
.

No.
Im not the greatest twitch player - I get most of my kills by sneaking up on people, ambushing people and other means of just generally catching people looking where Im not.

A longer TTK would just mean they start dancing around like clowns followed by often killing me in a twitch fight.

Mietz · 2013-01-23, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

No.
Im not the greatest twitch player - I get most of my kills by sneaking up on people, ambushing people and other means of just generally catching people looking where Im not.

A longer TTK would just mean they start dancing around like clowns followed by often killing me in a twitch fight.

From your statement, did you -ever- play a long TTK game?

Because it seems like you are regurgitating arguments about a subject you have no idea off. I mean, you are implying that long TTK games do not have ambushes or sneaky kills.

In fact, in long TTK games OHK weapons exist and are used quite frequently. I mean it doesn't matter how good of a twitch player you are if you catch someone from behind in Quake and he eats a Rail he will die 90% of the time (unless completely buffed out on armor and HP, but thats true for PS2 as well).

What twitch has, is a more consistent reward of the actual shooting instead of positioning. This is not to say that positioning isn't important, its super important, and map-control is an absolute must if you are playing competitively.
Its not like long TTK will rob you from ambushing or positioning. In fact I can't actually come up with a game where that would be true.

As an extreme example stands Shootmania Storm (in development), the gameplay is twitch, you only have OHK weaponry, yet TTK can be up to a minute because of the movement and positioning play.
If you watch some commentated streams (TotalBiscuit) you can see the strategy, tactics and control involved.

Kerrec · 2013-01-23, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Mietz

As an extreme example stands Shootmania Storm (in development), the gameplay is twitch, you only have OHK weaponry, yet TTK can be up to a minute because of the movement and positioning play.
If you watch some commentated streams (TotalBiscuit) you can see the strategy, tactics and control involved.

OHK (One Hit Kill) = ZERO TTK (instantaneous). That's smaller than the low TTK you don't like in PS2.

Yet the life expectancy (NOT TTK) in Shootmania Storm is in the minutes, because people use movement and positioning (I call that situational awareness).

Now, please explain to me, how PS2 doesn't have the same capability for "movement and positioning"?

I can vouch that I "CAN" and have survived for several minutes at a time, in thick combat while playing PS2.

What you've said completely contradicts your entire stance about PS2 needing higher TTK.

Stellarthief · 2013-01-23, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kerrec

OHK (One Hit Kill) = ZERO TTK (instantaneous). That's smaller than the low TTK you don't like in PS2.

Yet the life expectancy (NOT TTK) in Shootmania Storm is in the minutes, because people use movement and positioning (I call that situational awareness).

Now, please explain to me, how PS2 doesn't have the same capability for "movement and positioning"?

I can vouch that I "CAN" and have survived for several minutes at a time, in thick combat while playing PS2.

What you've said completely contradicts your entire stance about PS2 needing higher TTK.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't ^ more or elss correct? Doesn't TTK only start ticking while in a fire fight?

I could run around the outskirts of a battle in PS2 and live for 30 minutes and see a couple enemies if I wanted... but doesn't mean anything to my TTK. Once I get into a firefight, its usually over either way in a very short time..

Also correct me if I am wrong but isn't RoF and damage per hit (OHK example) not the only factors in TTK? Even with OHK if you miss 200 shots because of inaccuracy that still makes a long TTK. Or am I missing something?

Kerrec · 2013-01-23, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Stellarthief

Correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't ^ more or elss correct? Doesn't TTK only start ticking while in a fire fight?

I could run around the outskirts of a battle in PS2 and live for 30 minutes and see a couple enemies if I wanted... but doesn't mean anything to my TTK. Once I get into a firefight, its usually over either way in a very short time..

Also correct me if I am wrong but isn't RoF and damage per hit (OHK example) not the only factors in TTK? Even with OHK if you miss 200 shots because of inaccuracy that still makes a long TTK. Or am I missing something?

I come from a BF3 background. I was never really involved in forums prior to that, so even though I've played FPS's since the days of Wolvenstein, I only started seeing TTK since BF3.

In BF3, TTK is a THEORETICAL calculation (function) with Player Health, Bullet Damage (at max damage, so ignore range as a factor), and Rate of Fire as variables. It also assumes EVERY bullet hits, which neglects player skill, cone of fire effectiveness at ranges, recoil control and trigger control (several short bursts vs. long sustained burst, ie: controlling cone of fire).

TTK = Player Health DIVIDED by (damage per bullet TIMES bullet per second)

Mietz · 2013-01-23, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Stellarthief

But isn't ^ more or elss correct? Doesn't TTK only start ticking while in a fire fight?

I could run around the outskirts of a battle in PS2 and live for 30 minutes and see a couple enemies if I wanted... but doesn't mean anything to my TTK. Once I get into a firefight, its usually over either way in a very short time..

Also correct me if I am wrong but isn't RoF and damage per hit (OHK example) not the only factors in TTK? Even with OHK if you miss 200 shots because of inaccuracy that still makes a long TTK. Or am I missing something?

Well, using your logic, then there is no short/long TTK as all of these scenarios are valid for any game in existence ever.

I can die in Q3A as fast as I die in PS2, or CoD, or Halo, or Arma, etc. pp.

Point made moot? Yes.

psijaka · 2013-01-23, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Stellarthief

Correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't ^ more or elss correct? Doesn't TTK only start ticking while in a fire fight?

I could run around the outskirts of a battle in PS2 and live for 30 minutes and see a couple enemies if I wanted... but doesn't mean anything to my TTK. Once I get into a firefight, its usually over either way in a very short time..

Also correct me if I am wrong but isn't RoF and damage per hit (OHK example) not the only factors in TTK? Even with OHK if you miss 200 shots because of inaccuracy that still makes a long TTK. Or am I missing something?

No need to correct you, and you are not missing anything.

I suppose from the attacker's point of view, TTK starts from the moment they pull the trigger, but in the context of the defender reacting to damage they receive, TTK starts ticking once they receive the hit -This is the way it is normally measured, in my experience.

People normally assume that all shots land on target when calculating TTK. Of course, this rarely happens unless you are up close, due to recoil, cone of fire, enemy movement etc. Very hard to quantify (although I did manage to factor in recoil for COD Black Ops guns - http://denkirson.proboards.com/index...ay&thread=2699 )

psijaka · 2013-01-23, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Kerrec

TTK = Player Health DIVIDED by (damage per bullet TIMES bullet per second)

Not quite. The damage from the first bullet is received instantaneously.

TTK = time between shots x (bullets to kill -1)

ShadetheDruid · 2013-01-23, 11:21 AM

All this topic has succeeded in doing is convincing me that the concept of "TTK" is a meaningless construct (especially considering it can mean whatever the person using it wants it to mean).