Strikers are OP against air. - Page 11

Plaqueis · 2013-09-05, 02:05 PM

And to add to my last post, TR and NC seem to be working together... we were attacking Snowshear watchtower at Esamir, when atleast a squad worth of NC appeared in tanks, harrassers and other stuff. Otherwise nothing new but:

What on earth were they gonna accomplish there other than helping the Striker-republic..?

Sorry OT, i'm just fed up.

Max Extra · 2013-09-05, 03:29 PM

I keep seeing a bunch of posts complaining about how the Striker is a no skill weapon. I would like to know what other lock and forget launcher needs skill to use. If you have to try and use a lock and forget weapon then your doing something terribly wrong. besides the Striker is one of the few weapons that actually fit the TR traits of fast fire low damage. Per rocket the Striker literally has the lowest damage. Per clip though it does have the most, but you only get the full 2500- 3000 if you get hit by all the clip. if you don't get hit by all of it then its just as powerful as the average launcher. in my opinion in is good to see that the TR actually still has a weapon that relates to its special traits and hasn't been nerfed to not being special at all.

HelpLuperza · 2013-09-05, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Max Extra

I keep seeing a bunch of posts complaining about how the Striker is a no skill weapon. I would like to know what other lock and forget launcher needs skill to use. If you have to try and use a lock and forget weapon then your doing something terribly wrong. besides the Striker is one of the few weapons that actually fit the TR traits of fast fire low damage. Per rocket the Striker literally has the lowest damage. Per clip though it does have the most, but you only get the full 2500- 3000 if you get hit by all the clip. if you don't get hit by all of it then its just as powerful as the average launcher. in my opinion in is good to see that the TR actually still has a weapon that relates to its special traits and hasn't been nerfed to not being special at all.

This is because too many people call skill = aim. Its a very common fallacy that needs to stop. Its due to the Dunning-Kruger effect. Wrel did a good video about this fallacy. Proper use of Lock on's require tremendous mental skill. If you a TR heavy, are often the second person most people will notice in a fight after the maxes. Knowing how to out predict you enemy, get behind them, or force them to move to a certain position is critical skill if your using lock ons. The striker provide the additional advantage as you can force an enemy to react just by quickly lock on, to different targets. You can trick them into thinking their is more than one Air target forcing them to react to anti-infantry instead of worrying about the ESF in the nearby area or the even worrying about the sky guards who do more damage. Due to glitches with the striker it requires a fair bit of technical skill in knowledge of terrain.

I have long discussion over the past few months with both the TR and the VS and even NC players. We all agree the generally the striker needs to change; however, there's a problem with nerfing the striker under the current metric. The sad part people who complain about striker's don't realize is the stricker has a terrain bug unlike the other lock ons.

The problem is that unlike other lock-ons the striker occasionally fires into the ground, into walls, or even backwards. Its a terrain-related bug that usually only occurs when you constantly following a target like the ESF update suggests. From what my friends have told me the way to get out lock on then point straight up while firing. Don't get me wrong, I think that Striker does need to change, but I do think this bug needs to be addressed seriously if you going to go to a tracking lock on system.

This is a picture of my first (unsuccessful) attempt to help track down this bug. I was able to repeat the bug myself, but not get a picture in time. This is mostly because I have horrible screen capture software. This is why, I am asking the community for help in track down this bug. For those of you who do PS2 youtube videos do you think you could get a recording of this bug or post a video about it?

I want to track down this bug, to help prompt SOE to work on striker and lock on changes and nerf the striker. However, to due it in a way makes the game better by helping everyone.

P.S. They also told me their was apparently flare ignoring bug with the striker, so if anyone has some footage of that it would be great to post that too.

Aarth · 2013-09-09, 08:52 PM

It does happen fairly often.

The striker bug with flares is complicated. It is also not a straight line hit on a missile that is close to you. The flare will go off, the 1st missile gets dropped. The remaining 4 missiles will enter what seems a last known good position holding pattern and then when the flare effect (makes your craft invisible to missile) drops the remaining 4 missiles re-target your aircraft and travel what appears to be follow mode (high speed) to hit you within a few seconds after flare effect drops.

For Striker Behavior Refer to:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/c...iased_view_of/

Only Striker and Annihilator missiles use the advance tracking Algorithms, this makes them extremely difficult to dodge (basically you must Line of Sight them twice to successfully dodge, an extremely tall order btw). This is also likely the reason why this particular bug only occurs with the Striker, as the Annihilator only has one missile which is always successfully flared off.

Aarth · 2013-09-09, 09:22 PM

Detailed look the Striker.
A comparison to the Annihilator as a baseline.

Striker
Lock-on Time: 2.25 sec
Time to fire 5 rounds: 3.25 sec (500 dmg per round)
Reload: 5.0 sec
Total Damage: 2500 dmg
Total Time: 10.5 sec
DPS (238.1 dmg/s)
Annihilator
Lock-on Time: 3 sec
Reload: 4.7 sec
Total Damage: 1200 dmg
Total Time: 7.7 sec
DPS (155.8 dmg/s)

The Striker does 52.8% more dps then the Annihilator. The shorter lock-on time for the Striker is a definite advantage as well. This combined with a much larger first volley hit means the Striker is even more effective. Up to date game data shows the Striker (5.03 KPU) has over a 66% Kills Per Unique player advantage over the Annihilator (3.02 KPU).

The fact of the matter is the Striker has the highest dps of all lock-ons, and by a fair margin as well. It has 22% higher Dps then all the standard G2A lock-ons of each faction. [1500 dmg, 7.7 sec, 194.8 dmg/s, (2.5 sec lock-on, 5.2 sec reload)]. The Striker has single handedly moved the entire air game to a decided TR advantage.

Aarth · 2013-09-09, 09:30 PM

As for the Strikers effect, here is the up to date data on the matter. Strikers are likely the single weapon with the largest effect on the game.

Strikers single-handedly move the entire air game and likely give Prowlers the breathing room for more use and kills.

Oracle of Death
Source http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...=56268&page=19

Rocket Launcher Data From GU14
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...RLUpXR3c#gid=0

Strikers are by far the dominant ESRL with the biggest use and kill footprint in game. This is particularly impressive since Strikers cannot directly kill infantry and pilot/drivers can bail from a locked-on vehicle to avoid death. As for effect the Striker is most likely the cause for the following.

ESF Data GU14
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3UEppSGc#gid=0

TR Mosquito's about 30% more effective at killing ground then Scythes or Reavers per pilot (KPU). Or another view, TR in terms kill foot print (105000) get more ~75% kills versus VS (63000) or NC (59000) with just considering rocket pods.

Liberator Data GU14
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...2QVdLV1E#gid=0
Likewise this effect is found in Liberators with TR having a significant edge. Note the Liberator is identical across factions and as such a good control.

MBT Data GU14
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...QX3dJZlE#gid=0
Strikers are likely the cause for the Prowler use and performance due to it having to face less air and ground vehicle threats.

Aarth · 2013-09-09, 09:32 PM

This Striker edge severely punishes pilots for flying against the TR. It is not an enjoyable weapon mechanic shooter or target. The Striker needs an overhaul.

The most consistently proposed change so far on the forums has been a fracture like Launcher giving the TR a nice close to mid range launcher with damage granularity. Likely it could keep its 2500 dmg (500 higher then the decimator) and retain a superior projectile velocity but trade that for having to land 5 shot to do more. Reload times would be adjusted to compensate.

Another proposal would be a tracking dart (similar to recon tool) as the alternate fire. The rockets would then track to that dart. Darts would last 5-15 sec and can attach to players or vehicles.

Regardless of the change, something must be done to correct the situation the Striker has created.

SolLeks · 2013-09-09, 10:32 PM

it is interesting to note the liberators and how the TR lib is much more effective despite all the weapons and the libs themselves being 100% identical. Over such a large sample, you can't say that the TR are better, so wile that does not point 100% at the striker, it does make you wonder.

ChipMHazard · 2013-09-10, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by SolLeks

it is interesting to note the liberators and how the TR lib is much more effective despite all the weapons and the libs themselves being 100% identical. Over such a large sample, you can't say that the TR are better, so wile that does not point 100% at the striker, it does make you wonder.

I think it's entirely reasonable to point at the Striker as being the deciding factor in this discrepancy, now that the TR Burster MAX has been fixed. It was the first thing that popped into my head when I first saw the statistics.

blashyrk · 2013-09-10, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

I think it's entirely reasonable to point at the Striker as being the deciding factor in this discrepancy, now that the TR burster MAX has been fixed. It was the first think that popped into my head when I first saw the statistics.

Yes, and all this was well known and very obvious even before Maradine made the Oracle of Death etc, just by playing the game.

I just can't believe there are so many discussions on this topic over something that is nearly black and white with very few shades in between and I'm absolutely appalled by the number of TR players who would say anything to defend the Striker in its current state.
Very few of those players actually believe in what they're saying (most of them who do roll only TR and have never been on the receiving end), about 80% simply don't want the cheese to stop.

SolLeks · 2013-09-10, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

I think it's entirely reasonable to point at the Striker as being the deciding factor in this discrepancy, now that the TR Burster MAX has been fixed. It was the first thing that popped into my head when I first saw the statistics.

I was leaving a chance for unknowns instead of assuming absolutes based on stats, but it is my feeling that the striker is to blame.

Whenever I am shot down by G2A, 90% of the time its strikers, the other 10% is flack. I swear I never get shot down by VS G2A launchers or any other TR ones. and the rare times I take out my Mossie or fly a scythe to fight NC, Lockons are the least of my worries.

Aarth · 2013-09-11, 08:58 PM

The fix today won't change anything meaningful in terms of the Striker's ability to deal damage.

The fix today is mostly superficial (though needed) in effect. It is just an accurate visual path for the shooters rocket that everyone should now be able to see. The terrain clip bug occurred when the shooter (infantry render at 300m) is out of render range of target. This change will not change much. The advanced tracking algorithm for the Striker missiles allow it to dodge and fly around terrain such as tree branches, buildings etc. which will now be properly present for the rocket dodge around rather then pass through (as before) through if the infantry shooter was more then 300m away.

For Striker Behavior Refer to:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/c...iased_view_of/

Only Striker and Annihilator missiles use these advanced tracking Algorithms, this makes them extremely difficult to dodge. Basically you must Line of Sight them twice to successfully dodge, a task that extremely difficult to do. This is also the likely reason why there is particular bug of remaining 4 Striker missiles reacquiring and hitting after the flare effect drops (flare effect makes you invisible, i.e. no LoS). This only occurs with the Striker, as the 1st missile is always successfully flared off.

Regular G2A launchers use a much simpler intercept target method (terrain can reasonably be used to dodge for this).

TL-DR: Striker missiles will still hit you all the same. You just will see it dodging around terrain and hitting you instead of flying though terrain and hitting you.

Max Extra · 2013-09-12, 12:32 PM

I usually main line my TR on Mattherson, but ive played a bit of the other empires to get a feel for them to understand what im up against. I have not seen the issues that are in this thread to the extent they are being explained. I have found that there are hardly any mossys or libs in the sky for Mattherson. When ever I look at the sky its a scythe or a reaver. if the problems are being as bad as this thread seem to lead one to believe why then do i not see less aircraft.

My real question is i guess, Is this the same situation on all servers or is mattherson an exception to some of these stats. It would be nice to see some of these stats your pulling lined up against the servers they were pulled from along with populations for that server.

Emperor Newt · 2013-09-12, 02:29 PM

Try Miller during primetime

Rumblepit · 2013-09-14, 01:23 PM

The striker....It really is a waste of certs,I think I have over 1300 rounds fired and 16 kills lol, its trash.

Funny thing is most of you have forgot that 75% of the games population owns the Annihilator .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzzdjbRO2Ok

Lock on nest will always be a problem for air.I suggest you all cert into stealth and flares ...Ill be awaiting the "nerf the annihilator " threads to come in the next few weeks.