Warning, very unpopular opinion! Why kill-cam desperately needs to return - Page 12

Wahooo · 2013-09-10, 03:14 PM

Sure a kill cam CAN help new players learn a bit. But is it "Desperately Needed"?

There are a lot of things that are needed, like a way to get new players into mentor type outfits/platoons. There is a list of new player helpers already started, something from the game's side to help the new players connect with coaches. Of all of the aspects this game has that are more complex than a "traditional" shooter exactly where you died from is pretty low on the list for what new players need to know.

I remember reading a guide for the original Rainbow Six, as I tried the multi-player and got wrecked so bad. They basically said think about real life if you want to survive. If you just saw a teammate (or two) get shot standing at a window are you really going to go over an poke your head out that window to see what killed them? Of course not.

See what I see from a lot of new players is, not only do they go marching up to that window to see what is out there, it wasn't after a teammate died but after THEY died. Get shot, then go back to that same spot and stand still and look around. Really? I'm supposed to agree to a kill cam because people like that are quitting from getting killed over and over? Kill cam isn't really going to help them, they are still going to get killed over and over just with more variety.

My 7 year old daughter gets it. She may not be that great at doing it, but she saw me die last night and said "Daddy you weren't doing like you told me. You stopped moving and weren't looking all around."

MAYBE I could concede to giving it to new players up to BR5 or so, but that sucks too will those players that relied on it rage when it goes away? Those who need a crutch don't walk very well without it.

retief · 2013-09-10, 07:08 PM

Suggestion: add a "killcam" located on your corpse that is looking in the direction of the damage that killed you with no zoom. Basically, you see the same view you would have gotten had you been looking directly at whatever killed you. The camera does not move or follow your killer.

At close range, if the guy that killed you hasn't moved, you see who killed you (this shouldn't be a problem -- if the guy is standing in the open after shotgunning you, he isn't trying to be sneaky). You can definitely tell if there is a guy camping a corner or the top of a rock. Against explosives, you see where the explosive was (you don't see the person who planted the explosive or the person who set it off). Against a sniper, you see the general area that the sniper killed you from, but since the view is from the location you died and is at normal zoom, you won't know exactly where the sniper is, and you certainly don't follow the sniper if he relocates. Overall, you get the same information that you would have gotten had you been looking in the right direction and saw the shot's tracer. Presumably, good players are already looking in the right direction, so it doesn't help them at all. However, it gives newer players an idea about where they should be looking.

Overall, it penalizes the "find a good hiding spot and get a 20 man killstreak because no one looks up" playstyle and helps newer players figure out where they are being killed from without giving players who are smart enough to look in the right direction any more information.

Rolfski · 2013-09-15, 12:57 AM

In preparation for the BF4 beta I just started playing BF3 again and in no way I experienced a single situation where the kill-cam was "giving away position" or "ruining the tactical game play". This whole kill-cam rage is just thin-foiled crap, can't make anything else out of it.

Baneblade · 2013-09-15, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

In preparation for the BF4 beta I just started playing BF3 again and in no way I experienced a single situation where the kill-cam was "giving away position" or "ruining the tactical game play". This whole kill-cam rage is just thin-foiled crap, can't make anything else out of it.

Empirical evidence is not evidence.

CrankyTRex · 2013-09-15, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Baneblade

Empirical evidence is not evidence.

It's funny because if it were evidence, it would be evidence that there's no reason to implement a kill cam. If it doesn't give away the position of the attacker, it isn't going to help the kill-ee any, and therefore is unnecessary.

Mastachief · 2013-09-16, 03:55 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

In preparation for the BF4 beta I just started playing BF3 again and in no way I experienced a single situation where the kill-cam was "giving away position" or "ruining the tactical game play". This whole kill-cam rage is just thin-foiled crap, can't make anything else out of it.

Cool story bro, tell it again.

Public BF3 doesn't have tactical play, it's a round based clusterfuck.

How about picking a comparable game... like PS1. As i've already told you you lack the ability to understand what you are seeing on killcam and take advantage of it, lots of us do not have this failing. You may consider this "elitist" but you are not a good FPS player so your opinion on these sorts of matters has little credit, capable/good fps players have none of the issues you have been trotting out in this thread they put the effort in to learn and self improve this is what a fps game is all about, it is supposed to be challenging.

Have fun in BF4.

Violin · 2013-09-27, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Mastachief

You may consider this "elitist" but you are not a good FPS player so your opinion on these sorts of matters has little credit, capable/good fps players have none of the issues you have been trotting out in this thread they put the effort in to learn and self improve this is what a fps game is all about, it is supposed to be challenging.

+1
And thank you for saying it, because this is literally the thought that crosses my mind everytime I read one of Rolfski's post on any subject.

VaderShake · 2013-09-27, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Mastachief

put the effort in to learn and self improve this is what a fps game is all about, it is supposed to be challenging.

Have fun in BF4.

This.....

I often chuckle at these type of threads since I have been gaming for over 30 years and games were never easier to figure out than they are now. I would like to see some people try and figure out old school games like Maze-A-Tron, DiscWorld, and Contra (Without the Code)...all this without the collective brain of the internet to help either.

Grow a sack and get better...that's my advice...

Rolfski · 2013-09-30, 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by Mastachief

Public BF3 doesn't have tactical play, it's a round based clusterfuck.

Sorry to hurt your ego but this game is as much of a clusterfuck as BF3. Tactical play in this game is rarely about single player positions that might be "given away". Not unlike BF3, battles are generally too chaotic, hectic and flow too quickly to make kill-cam anything of a game-breaking issue.

As i've already told you you lack the ability to understand what you are seeing on killcam and take advantage of it, lots of us do not have this failing. You may consider this "elitist" but you are not a good FPS player so your opinion on these sorts of matters has little credit, capable/good fps players have none of the issues you have been trotting out in this thread they put the effort in to learn and self improve this is what a fps game is all about, it is supposed to be challenging.

Your short-sighted arrogance amuses me and I feel sorry for you that you need to get your self-esteem out of BR and KDR, but at the end of the day a few BR 100 no-lifers is NOT what keeps this game going.

Sorry to burst your bubble but SOE has a business to run here. For this game to succeed on the long run it needs to be equally fun and rewarding for new-comers and casuals as well. You cannot just place NBA all-stars and amateurs on the same basketball field like this game does and expect that everything will work out just fine.

There's nothing wrong with an insane high skill ceiling (it keeps players like you running), but if that means that you literally need to spend hundreds of hours in order to have anywhere near a fun and rewarding time (which is now the case with air), then there's something terribly wrong with game design.
Whether you like kill-cam or not, this game needs skill gap-bridging mechanics. Catering it to BR 100 hardcores only is a one-way ticket to commercial failure.

Originally Posted by Violin

+1
And thank you for saying it, because this is literally the thought that crosses my mind everytime I read one of Rolfski's post on any subject.

Thank you for your kind words and compliments. You are really doing your "respected" outfit a favour.

Mastachief · 2013-09-30, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Sorry to hurt your ego but this game is as much of a clusterfuck as BF3. Tactical play in this game is rarely about single player positions that might be "given away". Not unlike BF3, battles are generally too chaotic, hectic and flow too quickly to make kill-cam anything of a game-breaking issue.

Try playing along side a proper team rather than a zerg and you will see the difference... you won't understand it but you'll see it.

Your short-sighted arrogance amuses me and I feel sorry for you that you need to get your self-esteem out of BR and KDR, but at the end of the day a few BR 100 no-lifers is NOT what keeps this game going.

This is a computer game, it has no bearing on my self esteem. I feel for you if it effects you so badly. BR100 is not a marker on a lack of life or KDR, and again you are wrong here the pursuit of br100 and those that have attained it has and does keep this game running as generally these and the people putting up the cash and driving the development to keep this game challenging enough to justify a 10year life cycle and constant development.

Sorry to burst your bubble but SOE has a business to run here. For this game to succeed on the long run it needs to be equally fun and rewarding for new-comers and casuals as well. You cannot just place NBA all-stars and amateurs on the same basketball field like this game does and expect that everything will work out just fine.

This is where you completely don't get it, any and i do mean any FPS player worth their salt (oh look move mouse click button... profit) that are prepared to apply an IQ off 110+ can pick up this game and through a little effort jump in for free and enjoy the game with decent performance metrics (kdr 1.0+ and spm of 100+). Within a week or so of average playing time (2hours per session) will improve their metrics by a substantial margin. Then through looking listening and maybe a little searching (you know effort) they will improve a little bit more. Why should we cheapen the game for all the players that fall into the wide open pool from average to good to excellent to cater to the small group of people that are lazy here today gone tomorrow ADHD sufferers that will come and go without spending a dime.

There's nothing wrong with an insane high skill ceiling (it keeps players like you running),

There is no high skill ceiling, this is not arma. Planetside 2 is a very forgiving arcade spray and pray shoot em up. At best it's medium.

but if that means that you literally need to spend hundreds of hours in order to have anywhere near a fun and rewarding time (which is now the case with air)

Again not the case, an hour spent on youtube and 3hours spent practicing will get you to a good level in the air. Also people are getting their nerf to air to air combat skill.

, then there's something terribly wrong with game design.
Whether you like kill-cam or not, this game needs skill gap-bridging mechanics. Catering it to BR 100 hardcores only is a one-way ticket to commercial failure.

Again with the BR100 thing, it's just a number. There are plenty of terrible br100's. Skill gap bridging, FACEPALM. "Hi noob101 sorry that dude that is better at this game than you owned your ass here have this crutch feature to get the one up on him next time" yeh that sounds like a game that will last for years to come...

Thank you for your kind words and compliments. You are really doing your "respected" outfit a favour.

And around we go again. Give it up our points are very real and very valid yours are not. You disregard any and all comments from players of all skill / playstyles because they don't fit in your deluded little ideal to create a carebear environment in what is supposed to be a visceral FPS experience. You cannot have both worlds and maintain the persistent nature of the game.

The only thing that should have heavy time investment (dev) is the intro training environment and scenarios. Compliment these with artwork that provides direction in bases that direct people to key features such as jump pads, control points and spawns etc.

Violin · 2013-09-30, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Thank you for your kind words and compliments. You are really doing your "respected" outfit a favour.

Well first off, I was simply agreeing with the other person that called you out.

Secondly, I speak for myself and myself alone, my outfit has nothing to do with my thoughts on you.

And lastly, if you really want to bring outfits into this, I am sure all three of the respected outfits* you belong to are really proud of this 15 page shitshow you have created. Personally though I wouldn't hold it against them, because clearly on this matter you are speaking for yourself, which the last 15 pages have proven

.

*notice the lack of quotations, as in I am being sincere, those of us with an ounce of sense in us realize that any outfit with staying power in this game is worthy of being respected, and in that regard 666, GOTR and BRTD have certainly earned my respect.

VaderShake · 2013-09-27, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

In preparation for the BF4 beta I just started playing BF3 again and in no way I experienced a single situation where the kill-cam was "giving away position" or "ruining the tactical game play". This whole kill-cam rage is just thin-foiled crap, can't make anything else out of it.

LOL...in BF3 the maps are so small and their are so few players even without a kill-cam it's really easy to figure out were the enemy is at, the kill cam just confirms it in BF3......not to mention with destruction you can eliminate most cover so it becomes event easier to know where the enemy is and where they will come from.

BF3 is dumbed down beyond belief and I expect more of the same from BF4 which is why I will pass on it..

monkjunk · 2013-09-15, 01:52 AM

Kill cams kill tactical sniping, and that is it. I often use a silenced longshot bolt action for overwatch/flanking/scouting. I use the longshot because it has a high standard muzzle velocity, so when it is silenced it is still relatively high. Even so, mid-long range silenced sniping is a whole new game. Even a 50m distance between two different targets can mean that you cannot take both instantly, as you must zero in for each one individually due to the large amount of drop compared to the standard amount. Drop is not consistent either, so although you'll eventually work in an eye and be able to go "Two mildots should be enough... *Bang*...... got 'em!" alot of the time you'll need a test shot at something away from but at the same distance as the target to see where you need to aim. So, silenced sniping has not just got a 100 cert cost, but requires you to learn how to snipe all over again, and when you work for so long to be proficient at moving unseen and sniping with a silenced weapon, having a target come up behind you for no other reason than he saw you on the kill cam is real bullsh*t.

Now, I don't normally camp. Sometimes I do so I can recline back and essentially play "duck hunt", because that slow paced gameplay can be fun at times, but on a whole I don't normally do it. My original outfit, Omega Company, focused on small squad work, and now in AG7 we're implementing the same ideals. Normally when we'd attack, say, an amp station we'd go for the targets that were out of the way or unexpected, perhaps a shield generator on the opposite side of the base. So, out of my four man squad three would go in the room and overload whilst I would move between overwatch positions, staying at each for maybe a minute or more, depending on what angles I have and how many targets I can see.

Remembering that I hardly ever get seen and I use a silencer, I generally only die when I run into an enemy whilst on the move who I can't take down with my commisioner or I move into the room because my team got downed. Also remember that I often stick to positions for a minute or so, although I am constantly moving between them. If they were to implement kill cams, someone who would otherwise not have detected me due to my use (and subsequent training) of a silencer and hiding/stealth techniques would be able to get the jump on me because they saw me on the camera. Tell me that's fair. Tell me that although I went to all this effort to stay hidden, not engage targets until I had a clear shot, learn how to snipe all over again and find a nice concealed spot to stay in for about a minute before moving, it's fair that he knows all the ins and outs of my current position.

Kill cams killed sniping in BF3. It would happen all the time. you get sniped, you see where he was so you grab a jet or something and go rip his ass up. It nerfed snipers even more than they had been already, and the BF# sniper class was already pretty terrible.

You want to balance kill cams? Give the killer the exact position of the kill-ee in relation to him/her for the next 5 minutes after they spawned. Although this would be unbalanced... But the one who has been killed knowing the exact position of the killer is not?

EDIT: Also, sneak attacks do not have to be a one use thing. If you snipe someone from 5m away and they don't see you, chances are they'll think it was a distance shot and look elsewhere. A kill cam would show them that no, in fact you were right behind them.

GreyFrog · 2013-09-15, 09:47 PM

Kickban Roflski*, send him a video of how you did it and see if he learns >

*This is not a srs bzns post.

skwerlman · 2013-09-26, 06:50 PM

Perhaps if you were to limit kill cams to non-stealth attacks. For instance, if you've spent the certs to silence your weapon, then you shouldn't have your position given away by a kill cam. But if you kill someone with an assault rifle without a silencer, I think a kill cam is still reasonable. And if you further reduce kill cams to new players, then there's no real disadvantage to the hardcore community. Unless they're afraid of being killed by a br1.