"Speeding it up"

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

PS2 will make many PS1 Elites cry.

Are you saying this is a good thing or a bad thing?

Most PS1 Elites are in favor of a higher TTK. Yet you are arguing for a shorter one.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

The longer it takes to die, the less individual skill matters. This was no better evidenced than by BFRs where the least capable players could rain havoc on a battlefield with no need to fear anything not as tall as you were.

Decisions matter more when you have less room for mistakes.

PS2 will make many PS1 Elites cry.

It's different from infantry to vehicles, and it's also different when we're talking about going from very low to just moderate.

It also matters why. It's hard for me to tell from watching the video so I simply have to say I don't know what the video shows, but if the infantry TTK is low due to lack of recoil and lack of deviation etc, it's just spray kills, all that will matter is how fast you twitch your aiming sight to the target, accuracy of aim and control of your body(stopping, crouching and aim down sight which would reduce cone of fire to zero) and other factors won't matter.

[Baneblade]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

Are you saying this is a good thing or a bad thing?

Most PS1 Elites are in favor of a higher TTK. Yet you are arguing for a shorter one.

In PS1, I was a Rexo tank. Literally the Paladin of PlanetSide. But that does not mean I think it was a good thing.

[goneglockin]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Random deviation should be fairly high if you fire while moving or fire from the hip, but if you stop and aim down sight it will be reduced to zero.

What is fairly high? The games where your bullets are coming out at 45 degree angle because you are moving, and you cannot hit something you are centered on less than 20 feet in front of you are all trash. Cross hairs don't have to be Quake 3 arena lasers, but it'd be pretty sad to see BFBC2/BF3 cones of fire.

As it was, it looked tighter than BFBC/BF3. Thank god, that game has gotten ridiculous.

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

[...]all that will matter is how fast you twitch your aiming sight to the target, accuracy of aim and control of your body(stopping, crouching and aim down sight which would reduce cone of fire to zero) and other factors won't matter.

You know that's actually what most FPS-players would call skill.

It's not like you're instantly the best ever, practice makes perfect as the saying goes.

It will however probably not take weeks or more, like PS1, to learn all the ins and outs of combat.

Edit: @goneglockin: Imo early BF3 gunplay was pretty spot on.

[goneglockin]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

...all that will matter is how fast you twitch your aiming sight to the target...

Why should anything else matter? What else is there? Accuracy? Isn't accuracy keeping your crosshairs on your target? What difference does it make if it's a sight or a crosshair as far as shooting is concerned?

Do not agree with the modern take on FPS games that leaves movement out of it. That forces you to stop, aim down sight, or change stance. They do that to slow it down for console players and make the game playable for the lowest common denominator. It's not needed in a PC game.

P.S.

Secondly, being able to move to dodge the other guy's fire while shooting him back was half of the entire skill behind FPS gaming in the first place. Xbox360 makes people forget that, but the pendulum will swing back the other way because what they have now is a boring campfest by discouraging movement in every way possible.

[goneglockin]

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

Edit: @goneglockin: Imo early BF3 gunplay was pretty spot on.

When my TTK from the hip and from the iron sights are the same at ranges less than 20 feet I'd be fine with it. I basically have just gotten used to flipping ADS on to shoot at anyone who isn't close enough to take up a quarter of my screen. Pretty sad I think.

ADS should be for far shots only. And by far I mean like more than 40-50 yards. You know what game honestly had it right? It didnt have ADS but it had this zoom thing where you could barely move when you did it and crosshairs went into laser mode- FEAR. It was one of the last great PC shooters before console gaming's tendrils of lameness seeped into PC gaming too.

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by goneglockin

Secondly, being able to move to dodge the other guy's fire while shooting him back was half of the entire skill behind FPS gaming in the first place. Xbox360 makes people forget that, but the pendulum will swing back the other way because what they have now is a boring campfest by discouraging movement in every way possible.

How do you propose the developers implement this without it looking stupid? Have you ever tried to shoot accurately while moving at a speed capable of dodging fire?

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by goneglockin

What is fairly high? The games where your bullets are coming out at 45 degree angle because you are moving, and you cannot hit something you are centered on less than 20 feet in front of you are all trash. Cross hairs don't have to be Quake 3 arena lasers, but it'd be pretty sad to see BFBC2/BF3 cones of fire.

As it was, it looked tighter than BFBC/BF3. Thank god, that game has gotten ridiculous.

I shouldn't have said high, I should have said consistent. The deviation might only be a degree or two(or whatever is just enough to have a meaningful effect). And BC2 is just as much a spray and pray game as BF3 is.

Originally Posted by goneglockin

Why should anything else matter? What else is there? Accuracy? Isn't accuracy keeping your crosshairs on your target? What difference does it make if it's a sight or a crosshair as far as shooting is concerned?

Do not agree with the modern take on FPS games that leaves movement out of it. That forces you to stop, aim down sight, or change stance. They do that to slow it down for console players and make the game playable for the lowest common denominator. It's not needed in a PC game.

P.S.

Secondly, being able to move to dodge the other guy's fire while shooting him back was half of the entire skill behind FPS gaming in the first place. Xbox360 makes people forget that, but the pendulum will swing back the other way because what they have now is a boring campfest by discouraging movement in every way possible.

If we're going to have Quake, Unreal Tournament or Serious Sam, then make a game like that, but that mechanic isn't really suited to things that approach...well, war simulators. And Planetside is the closest thing to a war simulator that exists. Maybe if we were talking about CoD, there would be an argument on that point, but we aren't.

Also, you're exactly right. Keeping your crosshairs on target is a big part of skill. But the accuracy of your aim is technically different from the pure speed with which you twitch to your target. With spray weapons that have no meaningful recoil or other factors, you're basically wielding a sword of infinite length and all you have to do is slice it at your target such that your aim briefly intersects the target's location.

[goneglockin]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

How do you propose the developers implement this without it looking stupid? Have you ever tried to shoot accurately while moving at a speed capable of dodging fire?

Have I tried? I've been doing it for years! Doom, Duke, Quake, UT, FEAR... oh you mean like in real life? What does real life have to do with anything?

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by goneglockin

ADS should be for far shots only. And by far I mean like more than 40-50 yards. You know what game honestly had it right? It didnt have ADS but it had this zoom thing where you could barely move when you did it and crosshairs went into laser mode- FEAR. It was one of the last great PC shooters before console gaming's tendrils of lameness seeped into PC gaming too.

I think this is the solution I came to about this issue back in the "Higby want your thoughts on iron sights" thread.

I think a general increase in movement speed would be good too.

Originally Posted by goneglockin

Have I tried? I've been doing it for years! Doom, Duke, Quake, UT, FEAR... oh you mean like in real life? What does real life have to do with anything?

I'm just saying they have to make the animations fairly plausible. In an ADS system it would look slightly stupid to see this guy with his head crammed to the sights and running sideways at full speed while still shooting you.

[ArmedZealot]

Delete

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by goneglockin

When my TTK from the hip and from the iron sights are the same at ranges less than 20 feet I'd be fine with it. I basically have just gotten used to flipping ADS on to shoot at anyone who isn't close enough to take up a quarter of my screen. Pretty sad I think.

ADS should be for far shots only. And by far I mean like more than 40-50 yards. You know what game honestly had it right? It didnt have ADS but it had this zoom thing where you could barely move when you did it and crosshairs went into laser mode- FEAR. It was one of the last great PC shooters before console gaming's tendrils of lameness seeped into PC gaming too.

Far shots only? You want to use hipfire as far out as 50 yards? That's definitely a bad idea for this game, it's definitely trying to put a big chunk of Quake/Unreal Tournament/Serious Sam mechanics into it.

[goneglockin]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

If we're going to have Quake, Unreal Tournament or Serious Sam, then make a game like that, but that mechanic isn't really suited to things that approach...well, war simulators.

Are we going to simulate digging a hole in the frozen ground and sitting in it for months on end, and getting trench foot too? If you're going to make an MMOFPS, do it- but make it fun I say.

Realism is passe.

[Toppopia]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

I'm just saying they have to make the animations fairly plausible. In an ADS system it would look slightly stupid to see this guy with his head crammed to the sights and running sideways at full speed while still shooting you.

That is possible, but his gun would be waving from pointing at the sky to down to his feet, across to his left and right, realistically its possible, but you won't hit the broadside of the barn at 1 metre away.