Some random thoughts on air combat in PS2 - Page 12

meiam · 2012-06-11, 07:14 PM

Well to counter you're example of 8 aircraft (I'm assuming the 10 was just a typo) I would have 3 fighter 5 liberator, the 3 fighter would swarm the liberator, destroy those ASAP, you're squad has 2 option:

Use those 4 fighter to protect liberator, all come down to pilot skill, but at the end of day equally skill the 2 lib would go down along with the 3 fighter(if some fighter survive, they just concentrate 100% on surviving just to take some aggro away from lib). You're left with 5 liberator on one side vs. 6 fighter, the liberator go down one by one, but by the time there all dead, the ground troops have captured/defended the facility and the battle is already done, you're left with 6 fighter that have to run away.

Or focus also on liberator, but because there's more it takes more time (plus the 3 fighter are free to take out the other fighter), even if at the end you still have air superiority, the damage to ground troops was far more severe on the side with less liberator. That's the cornerstone of my argument air superiority means nothing at the end of the day because aircraft can't cap base and once troops are inside base, aircraft can't do much anyway.

To go back on radar point, if at any point, the information is overwhelming for the radar, it's also going to be overwhelming for the eye, if there's 100 aircraft flying, you're not going to be able to watch all of them, so you'll get shoot down from a blind spot anyway. Also when I meant "good pilot will rely on radar" I meant good pilot will learn to interpret radar info correctly and use it to get the advantage on people relying primarily on visual

But again all of this could very easily change in beta with number tweak, this is just mu guts feeling from the E3 footage

**Malorn** · 2012-06-11, 08:08 PM

I didn't say 10 aircraft, I said 10-man squad, and Liberators require at least 2, thus 8 aircraft. And were I a commander in your example, I would move the entire squad to A2A until dominance was achieved, including moving lib gunners to tailgun (AA config of course). The Liberators aren't the important part of the equation - Air superiority is. The Libs are there for capitalizing on the air superiority once achieved and to draw fire. If you go right for them and not the fighters you have already failed. The only time you'd want to go for the lib is if perhaps it had a bomb payload and was making a beeline for a critical galaxy and stopping the bomber was more important than owning the skies.

The composition I proposed was just theorycrafting a template for how a balanced air support squad might look like, as part of a division for a larger outfit. Obviously it gets tweaked depending on situation and you're rarely, if ever, going to come across an even matchup manpower or otherwise.

I could have just as easily put that 10-man squad into 10 air-to-air for specialized air domination and rely on others to bring the libs, that's an option too, and there will be outfits that specialize in only air-to-air combat who bring that benefit to their empire. But such a force won't be as effective at supporting ground forces. Situation would change composition but it was a general rule of thumb that I think would work out well. Might be better with only 1 lib and 2 more fighters but whatever, it can be tweaked.

It's like coming up with a good tank composition that mixes ES tanks & lightnings & sunderer of various configs to create a strong and versatile ground force.

Or like coming up with infantry squad compositions. What's the right balance of MAX, engis, medics, heavies, infils, and LA's? You won't have a perfect situation but general rule of thumb is what's important. You want to balance it out to maximize the strength and versatility of the squad.

Anyway, point is that air superiority is important and affects the ground game, not just the air game.

Sledgecrushr · 2012-06-11, 08:32 PM

If these bases tend to change hands fairly quickly then air dominance wouldnt really have any time to develop like Meiam is theorizing. If base takeovers happen to take several hours when they are hotly contested like the ps1 vets would like (and I as well) then air superiority might be achieved at different times by all of the empires in question.

meiam · 2012-06-11, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

If these bases tend to change hands fairly quickly then air dominance wouldnt really have any time to develop like Meiam is theorizing. If base takeovers happen to take several hours when they are hotly contested like the ps1 vets would like (and I as well) then air superiority might be achieved at different times by all of the empires in question.

Pretty much what I mean, I think that faster combat pace is going to translate into faster base capture which mean blitz tactics are going to be more important. Now I would love it if base capture took very long and air superiority did matter, but nothing I saw make me think it'll go this way.

**Malorn** · 2012-06-11, 09:10 PM

Captures are intended to last about 15 minutes assuming roughly even surrounding territory.

You need to take E3 demo footage with a grain of salt. The game was changed to make for a good demo, including reduced vehicle timers, reduced capture points, reduced capture time, and likely tons of other stuff.

Adjacent territory wasn't a factor - it will be. Resources weren't a factor - it will be (I hope). Vehicle timer wasn't a factor - it will be. Spawn point distance wasn't a factor - it will be. The list goes on.

ParisTeta · 2012-06-11, 10:37 PM

What is hard to understand, that Air Superority is a force mulitplicator?
I won the Air, so at best single units get through which get torn by other single units. Tanks roam free to the base. Enemy tanks never reach it because someone bombed them on the way `cause no enemy air is protecting them, if they have ground support, they reduce there ground strength.

Demoralize the enemy pilot, let them pile up on ground defend a base, then let just a few Libs bomb them to stoneage.

And Radar is planned, look at the Loverrator Video, there is radar for air and ground and anti radar, also ejection seats.

And what is that argument like " when you look behind you have could looked infront instead" against back view? Seriously wtf? Check your six, your side, regualry, you know, like driving a car, or do you look straight all the time, hey i love my mirrors, SA is everything! even driving a car.

Can we get back to discuss how Air Combat happends, with what we know? What Options in which scenario faction x vs y probaly has? You know, it is not important how to effectivly spend 10 people or 30 people, because there will be alot more squads and platoon around who just take chances you can give them with Air superority.

LegioX · 2012-06-11, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by ParisTeta

What is hard to understand, that Air Superority is a force mulitplicator?
I won the Air, so at best single units get through which get torn by other single units. Tanks roam free to the base. Enemy tanks never reach it because someone bombed them on the way `cause no enemy air is protecting them, if they have ground support, they reduce there ground strength.

Demoralize the enemy pilot, let them pile up on ground defend a base, then let just a few Libs bomb them to stoneage.

And Radar is planned, look at the Loverrator Video, there is radar for air and ground and anti radar, also ejection seats.

And what is that argument like " when you look behind you have could looked infront instead" against back view? Seriously wtf? Check your six, your side, regualry, you know, like driving a car, or do you look straight all the time, hey i love my mirrors, SA is everything! even driving a car.

Can we get back to discuss how Air Combat happends, with what we know? What Options in which scenario faction x vs y probaly has? You know, it is not important how to effectivly spend 10 people or 30 people, because there will be alot more squads and platoon around who just take chances you can give them with Air superority.

Just give me a check 6 view. That is all i want. How can you justify having an air game without having the ability to look behind you and being forced to always look to your front or 90 degrees left or right. DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

ParisTeta · 2012-06-11, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by LegioX

Just give me a check 6 view. That is all i want. How can you justify having an air game without having the ability to look behind you and being forced to always look to your front or 90 degrees left or right. DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

Excatly, but someone argued against it, that time lost looking back is better spend looking forward... where is Picards Facepalm when you need it.

Landtank · 2012-06-11, 11:17 PM

I'm curious as to how effective and Anti-Air Galaxy can be set up to be, or if it will be effective at all.

ParisTeta · 2012-06-12, 10:15 AM

We do know from an Interview, that Gal Pal can Cert for more speed or more armor my guess is, you can equip flares too. That will proably be the most AA Gal you can have, so i would say, can chase of single aircrafts but no group.

MrMorton · 2012-06-12, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by ParisTeta

What is hard to understand, that Air Superority is a force mulitplicator?
I won the Air, so at best single units get through which get torn by other single units. Tanks roam free to the base. Enemy tanks never reach it because someone bombed them on the way `cause no enemy air is protecting them, if they have ground support, they reduce there ground strength.

Demoralize the enemy pilot, let them pile up on ground defend a base, then let just a few Libs bomb them to stoneage.

And Radar is planned, look at the Loverrator Video, there is radar for air and ground and anti radar, also ejection seats.

And what is that argument like " when you look behind you have could looked infront instead" against back view? Seriously wtf? Check your six, your side, regualry, you know, like driving a car, or do you look straight all the time, hey i love my mirrors, SA is everything! even driving a car.

Can we get back to discuss how Air Combat happends, with what we know? What Options in which scenario faction x vs y probaly has? You know, it is not important how to effectivly spend 10 people or 30 people, because there will be alot more squads and platoon around who just take chances you can give them with Air superority.

^this

I especially like the idea of once you can knock your opponent out of the sky, you can switch to ag radar and light up all of the groundforces (assuming you can land and refit aircraft)

ParisTeta · 2012-06-12, 09:46 PM

Actually good question can you refit vehicle or do you need to spawn a new one.

Synapse · 2012-06-12, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by ParisTeta

Actually good question can you refit vehicle or do you need to spawn a new one.

Very good question...and can it be done in other places than vehicle pads?

ParisTeta · 2012-06-21, 02:23 PM

I don`t want to make a new thread for it, but i got the thinking bug again. Has anyone noticed something which prevents prolonged upside/down flying? Or pushing the nose to fast down?

Both a very unnatural habits, because of certain limitation in real life and would feel very unnatural in PS2 too. Spotting on the ground would be alot better when upside down, and evading against the instinct, pressing nose down would the best way, especially Scythe will profit from it.

I just can`t imagine seeing a flight of Aircraft upside down the most of the time.

I know in WW2O, 109´s uses there engine which works under negative g to evade sometimes with a dive forward, why older Allies models couldn`t and stutter.
Probaly with modern technick both wouldn`t be a problem, but would not feel good in my opinion, and it count what effective, this is what player will do.

What are your thoughts on that?

P.S.: Another WWIIO anecdote, once, flying upside down was faster then regular flight, doing some mistake in the Flightmodel, so there was a time, they were all flying upside down.

Reizod · 2012-06-21, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by McBane

Ok, I cannot offer real-life pilot experience. But I am playing various (military) flight sims for years. So I would love to have a pseudo flight model where classical dog fight manoeuvres would work.

Ditto^^^

Same here... 10+ years of flight sim exp

Though, I would bet that with the sci-fi nature of PS2, a longtime Sim pilot and hardcore gamer would have an edge over a real life non-gaming pilot new to this game. By the way, I'm also a real life student pilot.