Warning, very unpopular opinion! Why kill-cam desperately needs to return

[Mastachief]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

It's a bullshit myth, believe me. I've been playing shooters since the first MOH and I have since then seen this whole anti kill-cam argument over the years developing in some e-peen crap.

I've been playing shooters since before doom... wait yeh thats not relevant.

This is about planetside 2 and you are wrong and have no substantial planetside experience to back up your claims.

[CrankyTRex]

I'm kind of impressed this thread is still going.

Kill cams are an unfortunate crutch that really don't belong in any FPS in which a player can respawn, but this one especially.

The problem with dying in this game is not that it's difficult to figure out what did the killing or where it is, but that it's fast and frequent due to mechanics that encourage farming.

The only thing I'd be in favor of in terms of additional post-kill info would be one-liners (presumably text) about what happened. They could be either simple "You just got sniped" or they could be fun and whimsical "Way to stop that tank round with your face!"

[PredatorFour]

I too can't believe this thread is still going, such ridiculous claims for it to be in the game. *grabs popcorn*

[Falcon_br]

Originally Posted by CrankyTRex

I'm kind of impressed this thread is still going.

Kill cams are an unfortunate crutch that really don't belong in any FPS in which a player can respawn, but this one especially.

The problem with dying in this game is not that it's difficult to figure out what did the killing or where it is, but that it's fast and frequent due to mechanics that encourage farming.

The only thing I'd be in favor of in terms of additional post-kill info would be one-liners (presumably text) about what happened. They could be either simple "You just got sniped" or they could be fun and whimsical "Way to stop that tank round with your face!"

10 pages and didn´t comment anything.
The idea is so stupid that I really don´t understand why this topic was not closed on page 2. I was avoiding to come here, because every time I read it, I lose faith in humanity.
Please, make it stop!

[Baneblade]

Originally Posted by CrankyTRex

I'm kind of impressed this thread is still going.

It's still going in the sense that it is Homer Simpson in a boxing ring and hasn't remember to get knocked out yet.

[CrankyTRex]

Originally Posted by Baneblade

It's still going in the sense that it is Homer Simpson in a boxing ring and hasn't remember to get knocked out yet.

Hehe, true, but you gotta admire somebody willing to invest that much time into being wrong.

[Wahooo]

Originally Posted by CrankyTRex

but you gotta admire somebody willing to invest that much time into being wrong.

That is SIG worthy

[CrankyTRex]

Originally Posted by Wahooo

That is SIG worthy

Feel free to use it.

[almalino]

I like to sneak as an infiltrator into heavily defensed base and start killing defenders from the back hiding in dark places. This is a great tactics to help my platoon to attack the base.

Kill cam will eliminate this tactical game play altogether. And please, do not advise me to move all the time. It is not possible to do in a base where enemies are everywhere, so I need to hide.

So, no to kill cam.

[tricome]

No it's for kiddie shooters like cod and bf lets just keep it there. OP you want a killcam then play cod or bf stop trying to dumb PS2 down to their level.

It's just something new players will have to learn like we ALL did. I know thats a dirty word for you instant action, add running n gunning cod types but there you have it.

[Rolfski]

Originally Posted by almalino

I like to sneak as an infiltrator into heavily defensed base and start killing defenders from the back hiding in dark places. This is a great tactics to help my platoon to attack the base.

Kill cam will eliminate this tactical game play altogether. And please, do not advise me to move all the time. It is not possible to do in a base where enemies are everywhere, so I need to hide.

So, no to kill cam.

Kill-cam "eliminating this tactical game play altogether" is simply not true. You can still camp in your hidey hole but now you have a few tactical options to consider:

1. Take the risk that people come not after you. This is actually a viable risk to take as the game is generally too fluid, hectic and fast paced for people to go on a revenge mission. By the time your enemy has respawned and moved himself to your position, good chances are the tactical situation has already drastically changed to make such a mission viable in the first place.
2. Anticipate people taking revenge on you and have your AP mines planted along the route to your spot. Using the same kill-cam against your enemy "exploiting" it and instead killing him twice can be a very rewarding tactic.
3. Relocate to have a fire line on your last position, again to use kill-cam as a tactic, or just to re-engage is just an easy thing to do in this game. No matter how you look at it, the scale of this game is so big that you always have a different camping spot easily available to you, even in cramped tower fights.

Originally Posted by tricome

No it's for kiddie shooters like cod and bf lets just keep it there. OP you want a killcam then play cod or bf stop trying to dumb PS2 down to their level.

It's just something new players will have to learn like we ALL did. I know thats a dirty word for you instant action, add running n gunning cod types but there you have it.

This exactly illustrates why the whole kill-cam discussion has deteriorated over the years in some epeen crap.

It's precisely this stunning arrogance and hardcore gamer elitism that has rotten not only this but other communities as well. No matter how you look at it, COD and BF are great multi-player fps series that have become popular for a very good reason. Bashing it because it make you feel more superior is telling more about you than about these games.
Kill-cam did not "ruin" COD, nor did it "ruin" BF and there's really no reason to assume it will "ruin" PS 2.

Originally Posted by CrankyTRex

Hehe, true, but you gotta admire somebody willing to invest that much time into being wrong.

I was actually thinking exactly the same thing about all these flawed anti kill-cam sentiments that so far have all been counter-argued.

In the end btw it's not about a kill-cam feature. You can actually implement kill-cam in such a way that it would not give away your exact position at all, which would instantly kill 90% of all the rage against it in this topic.

If we forget kill-cams for a second: What is really underlying this discussion is the need for in-game mechanics that will help new and casual gamers overcome the ever-increasing skill gap a bit and make the game less of a frustrating experience for them.
And I'm kinda disappointed to see (although totally to be expected on a hardcore newbie-unfriendly vet forum like this) that people fail to see this need.
Instead they come up with all kinds of flawed arguments like "we had to learn it the hard way too", "look it up if you want to improve", "ask others to get better", "we don't need no dumbing down for COD kiddies".

Don't get me wrong: There's nothing wrong with a steep learning curve or a high skill ceiling. But for this game to not end as an inaccessible, BR100-only ghost town or Eve Online-like rocket science nerd-only resort, you need to make sure that:

• Getting into it is a fun and rewarding process that doesn't require outside help. Right now it's really not. The depressing death screen is only one aspect that needs to be improved. And as much as this game relies on teamwork and tactics/strategies that can be looked up on Youtube, most people still start as a casual lone wolver and don't bother with external tutorials. .
• Gaining skill vs reward is not a linear curve. The game was designed for a fully certed-out player to be only 20% better vs a new player, which is certainly not the case if you take game experience into account. Air being a good example of this. There shouldn't be a limit to what you can improve upon in this game but the dominance it will give you over newer or casual players should follow a diminishing curve.
  

[Wahooo]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

I was actually thinking exactly the same thing about all these flawed anti kill-cam sentiments that so far have all been counter-argued.

Nothing flawed about the anti-kill cam sentiments, and they have been counter opinion'd by you and only you. You have really failed to propose a valid counter argument to most of the points brought up, and more often than not argue yourself in a circle demonstrating how worthless the kill cam might be, then go find one of the FEW rage posts, or if there hasn't been one bring up the threads from a year ago. Kill cam is a flawed mechanic and simply doesn't belong. This isn't elitist or hard core, it is just someone who enjoys some of the cat and mouse elements of the game. The reason I like to play against other people rather than PVE shooters.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

In the end btw it's not about a kill-cam feature. You can actually implement kill-cam in such a way that it would not give away your exact position at all, which would instantly kill 90% of all the rage against it in this topic.

And eliminate its usefulness... THIS is how you argue in circles. You propose different contradictory solutions. A kill cam that shows what? Enough information that a newb learns but not enough information that a skilled/aware person benefits more? That cannot exist. No matter what you do with it, it is either useless or MORE usable by the one with more information and in both ways something that punishes much of what I actually find fun to do in this game.

I'm not hard core. I'm not elitist. I worry about the players who are already better than me being able to gain more information from when/if I kill them. I am already worried about them. It is not flawed or wrong for me to think this is more information than I want to give up about when/where I am.

There is plenty of concern and care about the new player experience. Many vets and high BR players share that concern. But do you know what is never brought up in those discussions and with reason? A kill cam. It is a bad idea and you should feel bad about continuing to try and opoionate for it.

[Taramafor]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Take the risk that people come not after you. This is actually a viable risk to take as the game is generally too fluid, hectic and fast paced for people to go on a revenge mission.

Soo... You want kill cam so people can get revenge?

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Anticipate people taking revenge on you and have your AP mines planted along the route to your spot. Using the same kill-cam against your enemy "exploiting" it and instead killing him twice can be a very rewarding tactic.

Yep. Revenge. And baiting. Using kill cam. I love how you try to use logic to state killcam can avoid doing this yet claim outright it's what you want from it.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Kill-cam did not "ruin" COD, nor did it "ruin" BF and there's really no reason to assume it will "ruin" PS 2.

Actually, it did. It was put in, didn't work, then taken out. No one wanted it.

[CrankyTRex]

Forgive me for cherry picking some of your response, but this thread is long enough as it is.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

I was actually thinking exactly the same thing about all these flawed anti kill-cam sentiments that so far have all been counter-argued.

There's a difference between countering an argument and simply refusing to accept it as true.

As numerous posters have demonstrated, the kill cams offer far more benefits to people who already know the game than to those who don't, so if your goal is to close the skill gap, then a kill cam is clearly not the solution.

As I pointed out in my earlier post, the skill gap problem isn't about not knowing where you were killed from, but the mechanics that not only encourage, but actually require, farming which in turn make death too fast and frequent to give new players some time to look around and learn their way.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

In the end btw it's not about a kill-cam feature. You can actually implement kill-cam in such a way that it would not give away your exact position at all, which would instantly kill 90% of all the rage against it in this topic.

There's absolutely no point to it if it doesn't give away the position of the killer. We already have a screen that tells you who and what killed you, the only point of a kill cam is to show you where they were at the time.

This is how it's clear you've lost the argument, because you're arguing you don't need the thing you want.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Instead they come up with all kinds of flawed arguments like "we had to learn it the hard way too", "look it up if you want to improve", "ask others to get better", "we don't need no dumbing down for COD kiddies".

Only flawed in their lack of tact, if anything. The best way to learn your way in a game like this is not a kill cam, but to play the game, watch videos of other people playing the game, and get advice from people who do know the game.

[Ertwin]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Kill-cam "eliminating this tactical game play altogether" is simply not true. You can still camp in your hidey hole but now you have a few tactical options to consider:

1. Take the risk that people come not after you. This is actually a viable risk to take as the game is generally too fluid, hectic and fast paced for people to go on a revenge mission. By the time your enemy has respawned and moved himself to your position, good chances are the tactical situation has already drastically changed to make such a mission viable in the first place.
2. Anticipate people taking revenge on you and have your AP mines planted along the route to your spot. Using the same kill-cam against your enemy "exploiting" it and instead killing him twice can be a very rewarding tactic.
3. Relocate to have a fire line on your last position, again to use kill-cam as a tactic, or just to re-engage is just an easy thing to do in this game. No matter how you look at it, the scale of this game is so big that you always have a different camping spot easily available to you, even in cramped tower fights.

Point 1: It's not just the person you killed you have to worry about. There is in game voice messaging, so any time you kill anyone with kill cam enabled, you can safely assume everyone in the area knows your position. People will hunt down infiltrators like it's an Olympic sport.

Point 2: AP mines are a limited resource, and not really a good counter when you're spotted.

Point 3: You said "relocate" when the person you're talking to specifically said that moving isn't a viable option...